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FR-S / BRZ vs.... Area to discuss the FR-S/BRZ against its competitors [NO STREET RACING]


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Old 07-02-2013, 10:55 AM   #71
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2.0L NA 260hp 175tq CPT Ford Duratec out of Caterham's R500. Seems like the best 2L you can buy.
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Old 07-02-2013, 12:18 PM   #72
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My Alfa Twincam 2.0L made me very happy over the 7 years I had it.
Easy motor to work on, chain cam drive, all alloy block, heads and valve covers.
It's what sold me on another 2L GT car (FR-S).

Was sad to see Alfa go to the V6 after that.
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Old 09-21-2013, 04:05 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by hmong337 View Post
sr20de/sr20ve engines should be included as part of the list. great engines. the sr20ve made about 190hp and 144tq.
http://history.nissan.co.jp/SILVIA/S...IAL/index.html





The 200 hp Silvia S15 is so similar to the BRZ/FRS/86

But I still prefer the SR20DET more =P
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Old 09-22-2013, 06:32 AM   #74
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No love for the B16B? 180hp on a 1.6L with a 9k rpm rev limit.
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Old 09-23-2013, 11:31 AM   #75
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Honestly, I think the motors that can comply with all the restrictions of emissions standards AND make power are pretty great feats of engineering.

If a F22 and K20 and 2ZZ could make the same amount of power now as they did then with the same restrictive emissions requirements as today, I'll be even more impressed. Stroker kits and turbo'd probably all remove the cats, so to me, that isn't impressive. Just remove the cats on our cars and we'll instantly make 20HP. Remember, we all need to breathe the air--the less we pollute, the better. That's one reason I'm impressed with the FA20 in our cars.
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Old 09-23-2013, 12:03 PM   #76
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Honestly, I think the motors that can comply with all the restrictions of emissions standards AND make power are pretty great feats of engineering.

If a F22 and K20 and 2ZZ could make the same amount of power now as they did then with the same restrictive emissions requirements as today, I'll be even more impressed.
Just remove the cats on our cars and we'll instantly make 20HP. Remember, we all need to breathe the air--the less we pollute, the better. That's one reason I'm impressed with the FA20 in our cars.
Um, F20C, F22C, K20, 2ZZ all had "restrictive" catalytic converters, it's not any recent phenomenon!

They aren't necessarily that restrictive, either. I guarantee that you won't make anything like +20hp more simply removing the cats on the FA20. I would bet money that it's less than 5hp lost. If that... Best estimates for a test pipe on an S2000, no other mods: 2-3rwhp. I seriously doubt that the Toyobaru cats are any more restrictive at the FA20's lower revs.

Emissions regulations have more than likely tremendously INcreased engine performance over the years, as without them some manufacturers would have just stuck with carburetors and much less sophisticated engine management overall. Efficient combustion is inherently pretty clean, main products being CO2 and H2O. More complete burning of fuel gives greater performance, less emissions.
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Old 09-23-2013, 01:54 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by ZDan View Post
Um, F20C, F22C, K20, 2ZZ all had "restrictive" catalytic converters, it's not any recent phenomenon!

They aren't necessarily that restrictive, either. I guarantee that you won't make anything like +20hp more simply removing the cats on the FA20. I would bet money that it's less than 5hp lost. If that... Best estimates for a test pipe on an S2000, no other mods: 2-3rwhp. I seriously doubt that the Toyobaru cats are any more restrictive at the FA20's lower revs.

Emissions regulations have more than likely tremendously INcreased engine performance over the years, as without them some manufacturers would have just stuck with carburetors and much less sophisticated engine management overall. Efficient combustion is inherently pretty clean, main products being CO2 and H2O. More complete burning of fuel gives greater performance, less emissions.
I didn't mean having cats themselves but I meant that it's now no longer uncommon to have 2 or 3 cats downstream in the exhaust. After looking through different dynos, it seems the cat delete is useful on FI engines and engines with 2 or 3 downstream cats. I apologize for that. I made a general assumption based on my experience with a Speed3. However, it still stands that many of those great engines from 10+ years ago no longer meet proper emissions standards, so making similar power to what we had 10 years ago with newer emissions standards is a great feat. If the FA20 had emissions standards from 10+ years ago, I'd bet it'd make more power.

Although I think DI makes a huge difference. I wonder if those older cars had DI, would their designs hold up and make more power and be emissions qualified to be on today's market.
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Old 09-23-2013, 02:06 PM   #78
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I still vote for the 4-AGE blacktop, high-revving dream with ~ 175 hp out of 1.6 liters. and plus, like @fatoni said, there are still racing versions of these engines out there making 240+ hp with some work. Takumi's revved to 12,000rpm!!!! (i know it was a cartoon, but i still have great childhood memories of that car)
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Old 09-23-2013, 06:03 PM   #79
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Personally, I dont think the 13B or any rotary engine would be considered among the best. Any reciprocating engine gets better milege and most are more reliable.

They have lousy torque too.

Plus you are very limited where you can get it serviced when needed. I think Mazda finally realized this so no more rotary. Wankel was a wanker LOL.

For reliability and longevity they say the 2AZ-FE 2.4 L is hard to beat. Not so much for.performance ( its in the previous generation Camry as well as the xB2.
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Old 09-23-2013, 06:28 PM   #80
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Personally, I dont think the 13B or any rotary engine would be considered among the best. Any reciprocating engine gets better milege and most are more reliable.

They have lousy torque too.

Plus you are very limited where you can get it serviced when needed. I think Mazda finally realized this so no more rotary. Wankel was a wanker LOL.

For reliability and longevity they say the 2AZ-FE 2.4 L is hard to beat. Not so much for.performance ( its in the previous generation Camry as well as the xB2.
while i dont think the 13b should be among the best 2 liters (especially considering that its not 2 liters), i think the torque criticism is excessive. after all its torque is less lousy than the fa20 but you didnt bother to mention that.
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Old 09-23-2013, 07:04 PM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fatoni View Post
while i dont think the 13b should be among the best 2 liters (especially considering that its not 2 liters), i think the torque criticism is excessive. after all its torque is less lousy than the fa20 but you didnt bother to mention that.
I suppose the torque wasnt relevant since most small displacement NA motors are fairly anemic that way. Not sure if that is due to longer stroke being less efficient or emissions.

You cannot compare voluemetric efficiency on a rotary displacement since it works completely different. Suffice it to say I'll take reciprocating over rotary any time
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Old 09-23-2013, 07:19 PM   #82
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I suppose the torque wasnt relevant since most small displacement NA motors are fairly anemic that way. Not sure if that is due to longer stroke being less efficient or emissions.

You cannot compare voluemetric efficiency on a rotary displacement since it works completely different. Suffice it to say I'll take reciprocating over rotary any time
now that i mostly agree with. i just dont understand why you say you cant compare volumetric efficiency. why is that the only thing you dont want to compare? nobody has any issues comparing the mileage or maintenance but when it comes to its most significant upside, all of a sudden we cant compare it.
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Old 09-23-2013, 07:27 PM   #83
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now that i mostly agree with. i just dont understand why you say you cant compare volumetric efficiency. why is that the only thing you dont want to compare? nobody has any issues comparing the mileage or maintenance but when it comes to its most significant upside, all of a sudden we cant compare it.
Im no expert but I think earlier in the thread someone said the rotary displacement is equal to 2 x so 1.3 L is actually equal to 2.6 L, so its less efficient. Maybe since it isnt 4 stroke.
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Old 09-23-2013, 07:36 PM   #84
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Im no expert but I think earlier in the thread someone said the rotary displacement is equal to 2 x so 1.3 L is actually equal to 2.6 L, so its less efficient. Maybe since it isnt 4 stroke.
thats pretty much what they mean. i think its because a 4 stroke piston engine has to turn the crank 720* while a rotory only uses 360*. the thing is, that doesnt make it less effecient. it just means its not twice as efficient. we can make equivocations but at the end of the day, the 13b is still only 1.3l.

that being said, i still dont think its one of the greats. i just get a little frustrated by these "all things equal" kind of points. in my opinion, "all else equal" means "if you take away all of its advantages and leave only this specific disadvantage i am bringing up, it is at a disadvantage." im not saying thats your intention but i feel thats kind of what is happening
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