New OFT Tune optimized for USDM E85 EL with Enhanced Performance vs OTS/Wayno's!

[Chimera]

I hate how these threads turn into this. I came looking for information on cold startups on e85, because my car when running e85 sometimes stalls immediately after start up, and I think it is probably bad for the cars health.
What I found is not very helpful though..
At least people are still active I guess :-)

[steve99]

Originally Posted by Chimera

I hate how these threads turn into this. I came looking for information on cold startups on e85, because my car when running e85 sometimes stalls immediately after start up, and I think it is probably bad for the cars health.
What I found is not very helpful though..
At least people are still active I guess :-)

have a read of the tune tweaks link below

then go to wayno's tune s link in tune tweaks post and copy appropiate tables to your tune
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=83945


you will need waynos modded defs as some of those tables not in standard oft defs


these
- Cranking Fuel Injector Pulse Width A (ECT)
- Cranking Fuel Injector Pulse Width B (ECT)
- Cranking Fuel Injector Pulse Width C (ECT)
- Cranking Fuel Injector Pulse Width D (ECT)
- Cranking Fuel Injector Pulse Width E (ECT)
- Cranking Fuel Injector Pulse Width F (ECT)
also copy the MAF after start tables




for quiet start you will need idle spped adjustments
TABLES CHANGED FOR QUIET COLD START:
- Idle Speed Target A
- Idle Speed Target B
- Idle Speed Target C
- Idle Speed Target D
- Idle Speed Target E
- Idle Speed Target F
- Ignition Timing Post Start
- MAF Correction After Start (In Gear)
- MAF Correction After Start (Neutral)

read the romraider tips below if not familiar with romraider

[VitViper]

E85 will not detonate. Any ignition correction you see on E85 is not detonation. A good load bearing dyno should be used to determine MBT timing with E85 as you will continue to build cylinder pressure well past MBT, until the motor flings a rod. Fortunately for you guys playing around with E85 on N/A cars you don't make enough power to run into rod flinging timing maps yet.

Before you get your pitchforks out, I've tuned and converted more cars to E85 than I can count. I have 800-900whp 4 bangers running around on E85, and detonation is the least of our concerns, lol. If you are getting knock correction on E85, you might want to stop and think about the why, but I assure you it is not from the cylinder charge spontaneous or uncontrolled combustion (IE: detonation).

[nelsmar]

Originally Posted by VitViper

E85 will not detonate. Any ignition correction you see on E85 is not detonation. A good load bearing dyno should be used to determine MBT timing with E85 as you will continue to build cylinder pressure well past MBT, until the motor flings a rod. Fortunately for you guys playing around with E85 on N/A cars you don't make enough power to run into rod flinging timing maps yet.

Before you get your pitchforks out, I've tuned and converted more cars to E85 than I can count. I have 800-900whp 4 bangers running around on E85, and detonation is the least of our concerns, lol. If you are getting knock correction on E85, you might want to stop and think about the why, but I assure you it is not from the cylinder charge spontaneous or uncontrolled combustion (IE: detonation).

I came in to say this... Taking someones random tune from the forum that has not tested for MBT on the dyno and just says "it feels better". Oh boy...

Also to the OP, so you do you have an ethanol sensor in your car to prove your pump is pure E85? Because the last time I was in san diego I want to say I filled up and ended up at high 70's ethanol on my zeitronix gauge. I know the pumps up in oceanside are a few points lower than a lot of the pumps in Phoenix. I don't fill up enough to know the consistency over there but I know in Phoenix it can range a good 5-10% ethanol content every week or so. Hell I have a log somewhere of my own fuel going from E83 to E75 then back to almost E83 again in the same 4th gear pull. lol

[phrosty]

Originally Posted by nelsmar

I came in to say this... Taking someones random tune from the forum that has not tested for MBT on the dyno and just says "it feels better". Oh boy...

I'm pretty sure Shiv's E85 timings are already at MBT, so I'm not sure what the more aggressive timings he's put on are doing.

[nelsmar]

Originally Posted by phrosty

I'm pretty sure Shiv's E85 timings are already at MBT, so I'm not sure what the more aggressive timings he's put on are doing.

I haven't looked at shiv's map in a long time so I honestly have no idea =/ I doubt they are right at MBT though as it is an OTS map but probably close.

[BRZ Fanboi]

Originally Posted by nelsmar

I came in to say this... Taking someones random tune from the forum that has not tested for MBT on the dyno and just says "it feels better". Oh boy...

Also to the OP, so you do you have an ethanol sensor in your car to prove your pump is pure E85? Because the last time I was in san diego I want to say I filled up and ended up at high 70's ethanol on my zeitronix gauge. I know the pumps up in oceanside are a few points lower than a lot of the pumps in Phoenix. I don't fill up enough to know the consistency over there but I know in Phoenix it can range a good 5-10% ethanol content every week or so. Hell I have a log somewhere of my own fuel going from E83 to E75 then back to almost E83 again in the same 4th gear pull. lol

Oceanside is not San Diego just so you know. They are about an hour apart. I don't have a Zeitronix unfortunately. I use this. It isn't as convienienent as a dedicated analyzer but it gets the job done. Again I cannot speak for the multitude of E85 pumps out here. For all I know bums piss in the E85 where you live. Again as I keep having to restate for some reason, do not use this tune if you are not sure on the quality of your E85. However Shiv has stated that his tune was good to E40 or so. I'm not sure about Wayno's tune but these cars do not even need the full octane of E85 anyway.

Originally Posted by phrosty

I'm pretty sure Shiv's E85 timings are already at MBT, so I'm not sure what the more aggressive timings he's put on are doing.

Originally Posted by nelsmar

I haven't looked at shiv's map in a long time so I honestly have no idea =/ I doubt they are right at MBT though as it is an OTS map but probably close.

This. It is not like I am just making up random timing. I am using Shiv's Timing with corresponding fuel map to boot except in cases where Wayno was able to improve performance due to more advanced timing. I am not just plugging in random numbers. These timings have been proven on many peoples cars. This tune just hasn't been tested on very many cars yet. Wayno's tune is a huge improvement over the OTS tune, However I am not alone in feeling that I could do without the relaxed timings of his tune vs the timings in the OTS tune which is probably the most tested tune on this forum.

Also my rock solid IAM and little to no detectable knock, (Under 0.7), and good AFR has to count for something....

[nelsmar]

Originally Posted by BRZ Fanboi

Oceanside is not San Diego just so you know. They are about an hour apart. I don't have a Zeitronix unfortunately. I use this. It isn't as convienienent as a dedicated analyzer but it gets the job done. Again I cannot speak for the multitude of E85 pumps out here. For all I know bums piss in the E85 where you live. Again as I keep having to restate for some reason, do not use this tune if you are not sure on the quality of your E85. However Shiv has stated that his tune was good to E40 or so. I'm not sure about Wayno's tune but these cars do not even need the full octane of E85 anyway.




This. It is not like I am just making up random timing. I am using Shiv's Timing with corresponding fuel map to boot except in cases where Wayno was able to improve performance due to more advanced timing. I am not just plugging in random numbers. These timings have been proven on many peoples cars. This tune just hasn't been tested on very many cars yet. Wayno's tune is a huge improvement over the OTS tune, However I am not alone in feeling that I could do without the relaxed timings of his tune vs the timings in the OTS tune which is probably the most tested tune on this forum.

Also my rock solid IAM and little to no detectable knock, (Under 0.7), and good AFR has to count for something....

1) I was referencing both san diego and ocean side. Hell lets toss in most of the LA region.
2) Ive likely pumped more gallons of E85 in my FRS in the last year in southern California than you have in its existence. All with an analyzer plugged in.
3) I see higher ethanol content in Phoenix consistently than any area in southern California that I have happened to notice (I don't even look at the gauge all that often but when traveling sometimes I do).
4) Ive probably burnt more E85 up on the dyno in other peoples FRS/BRZ's than you pumped into your car on E85.
5) You can push a car past MBT and have an IAM of 1. @VitViper already covered this one. On 91 octane you end up knocking before hitting MBT giving you an idea of where timing should go. On E85 you can go past MBT and the combustion could be happening during the compression stroke without any feedback on the knock sensor. This causes extra wear on the engine. There is a nice post laying around by argee or something like that. I can't remember his exact name but he was kind enough to post some cylinder pressure logs of firing at multiple degree's of advance showing the increase of pressure that occurs when you combust during the compression stroke.

I would tend to think I might have a slight bit of an understanding of how the fuel works, and what is being pumped in the cars considering I actually have data based of of data logs, dyno logs, and sensors.

Also I didn't bother opening the log or the ROM. I have no idea where your timing is. I was replying from my phone at the time. Im not saying it isn't great. I am just saying that you saying it is great based off how it "felt" is a poor way to judge something. I use actual data to present what is great rather than my opinion how the car feels it "might" be accelerating.

[BRZ Fanboi]

Originally Posted by nelsmar

5) You can push a car past MBT and have an IAM of 1. @VitViper already covered this one. On 91 octane you end up knocking before hitting MBT giving you an idea of where timing should go. On E85 you can go past MBT and the combustion could be happening during the compression stroke without any feedback on the knock sensor. This causes extra wear on the engine. There is a nice post laying around by argee or something like that. I can't remember his exact name but he was kind enough to post some cylinder pressure logs of firing at multiple degree's of advance showing the increase of pressure that occurs when you combust during the compression stroke.

If this was happening it would also be happening in the OTS and Wayno's tunes as I don't use any timing that has not already been tested in those tunes, but thank you for the useful information.

[phrosty]

Originally Posted by BRZ Fanboi

It is not like I am just making up random timing. I am using Shiv's Timing with corresponding fuel map to boot except in cases where Wayno was able to improve performance due to more advanced timing.

Wayno has not added timing, as far as I know. There are two tables: base timing, and KCA max. He has shifted some timing between the two to smooth the base timing table. The overall result is that, if you're not getting any FLKC, it should give you the same timing as Shiv. By combining Shiv and Wayno's timings, you've likely exacerbated some of the "rough" timing that was smoothed.

Also, I believe Shiv said that MBT was achieved around E40, so there's no "safety net" needed for timing like the 91/93 maps have. Every engine is different and I'm sure the numbers in the OTS tunes aren't perfect for each one, but anyone saying they can test this with a butt-dyno is fooling themselves.

[BRZ Fanboi]

It is sad to see the direction this thread has taken. This tune is better than Shiv's 2.x OTS EL E85 for sure and is on an equal level to Wayno's tune. They just serve different purposes. Wayno's tune is all about fuel economy and creating the "Everyman's" rom. Wayno's rom is a very well tested. If you have any issues with using my experimental rom then please stick to this tune or the OTS tune. My tune is about extracting all of the performance I can out of the E85 in my area and is closer in line to Shivs tune. I don't use any timings that haven't already been tested in these 2 well-tested tunes. I don't have very many people running this tune yet so it is not as well tested as I would like. The tune runs rock stable for me but what I really need is for more people to test and at least look at the tune. These types of posts are the types of posts that will be beneficial in this thread moving forward.

[raven1231]

Sad you removed your master tuner statues from under your user name

[Thorpedo]

Not coming in to bash, but here is your problem..

"This tune is better than Shiv's 2.x OTS EL E85 for sure and is on an equal level to Wayno's tune."

You have NO data to support this, whereas the tunes you are saying are "worse" have extensive testing and data to go along with them. I'm sorry, but your (novice) butt isn't going to tell you if your tune is "better". Thanks for trying to help, but you're risking damage to other people's cars and you should take it down. There are lots of people out there who don't know any better, and you may end up costing them money. You didn't even know what to log....

[BRZ Fanboi]

Originally Posted by raven1231

Sad you removed your master tuner statues from under your user name

I was requested to do that by a forum member that I will not name because it is unimportant. This forum member believed it gave the wrong impression which is why I changed it. I have been clear from the beginning with my posts and my purpose. Thank you for further muddying up the thread with useless information.