Delicious Tuning - NA Development Thread

[Joesurf79]

Originally Posted by Goingnowherefast

Maybe. We'll see what Bill has in store for us later. I would really like a solution that doesn't touch the bottom end. Honestly any solution that doesn't require machining would be preferable.

Exactly. Literally every FI person I know that actually tracks these cars hard has had issues, whether it be heat management related or engine randomly externally venting itself related.

It's part of boosting an engine with 12.5 : 1 static compression I think? There's no room for error under boost. It goes lean for whatever reason - and all of a sudden a rod or two quits the team in dramatic fashion.

I've got a pretty robust cooling setup as is with legit math-ed out ducting. Temps are in check NA, but with boost, I'd have to re-work some of it for sure.

[86TOYO2k17]

Originally Posted by Goingnowherefast

Maybe. We'll see what Bill has in store for us later. I would really like a solution that doesn't touch the bottom end. Honestly any solution that doesn't require machining would be preferable. If we can figure out a reliable solution to increasing the rev limit while keeping the torque from dropping off, there's a good bit of horsepower increase right there.



Exactly. Literally every FI person I know that actually tracks these cars hard has had issues, whether it be heat management related or engine randomly externally venting itself related.

That will be hard. NA these cars start to drop off pretty hard at 6900rpm. 155wtq at 6900rpm is 203whp about the highest i've seen possible so far.

Now if you could drag that out another 600rpm and still make 155wtq but at 7500rpm it would be 221whp. I think the only way to keep power up that high would be ITBs or maybe shorter runners on intake manfiold, and a ace150 header, together i could see those holding power to maybe 7200rpm or 212whp. Then toss in cams and some oversized valves and you could probably hold power to 7500rpm and make 220whp. to go any higher you would need more displacement I.E. stroker kit.

[Goingnowherefast]

Originally Posted by 86TOYO2k17

That will be hard. NA these cars start to drop off pretty hard at 6900rpm. 155wtq at 6900rpm is 203whp about the highest i've seen possible so far.

Now if you could drag that out another 600rpm and still make 155wtq but at 7500rpm it would be 221whp. I think the only way to keep power up that high would be ITBs or maybe shorter runners on intake manfiold, and a ace150 header, together i could see those holding power to maybe 7200rpm or 212whp. Then toss in cams and some oversized valves and you could probably hold power to 7500rpm and make 220whp. to go any higher you would need more displacement I.E. stroker kit.

No doubt it won't be easy, but if he can figure out a way to make the same 155-150 WTQ at 8,000 rpm, well that gets us in the ballpark of ~228-236 WHP. The way I read this: "The plans are to increase the NA power above what the current limits with the current level of parts in the market." makes it seem like it likely won't only utilize parts that are already on the market (ITB's, existing intake manifolds) and instead might focus on other aspects of allowing the engine to rev out while not losing steam. We'll have to wait and see.

Originally Posted by Joesurf79

It's part of boosting an engine with 12.5 : 1 static compression I think? There's no room for error under boost. It goes lean for whatever reason - and all of a sudden a rod or two quits the team in dramatic fashion.

I've got a pretty robust cooling setup as is with legit math-ed out ducting. Temps are in check NA, but with boost, I'd have to re-work some of it for sure.

Yeah agreed. I honestly think it's a combination of a bunch of factors like thin cast connecting rods, high compression cast pistons, fairly primitive ECU architecture, and rather poor oiling ability. It just adds up to a lot of stock and even built motors going boom real quick.

[Lantanafrs2]

I like the stroker kit but dont trust aftermarket quality control. Be a real bitch to do all that work and then find out the crank wasn't plated properly.

[Joesurf79]

Originally Posted by Goingnowherefast

...fairly primitive ECU architecture, and rather poor oiling ability...

I have heard that a Motec tuned by someone that knows what they are doing helps. I'm assuming that there are more safety related conditions that can be set and monitored in a standalone? Finer control of all parameters involved, thus better resolution and thus faster reactions when things begin to go awry? Someone school me lol!

The oiling issues are another story. I'm pulling enough g load on hoosiers that I put an accusump back in the car, but I am still leery that I will have an issue at some point. Need to get an oil pan baffle and killer B pickup quickly from what I am told. And there are still no guarantees with those three precautions...

[gtengr]

Originally Posted by Joesurf79

It's part of boosting an engine with 12.5 : 1 static compression I think? There's no room for error under boost. It goes lean for whatever reason - and all of a sudden a rod or two quits the team in dramatic fashion.

I've got a pretty robust cooling setup as is with legit math-ed out ducting. Temps are in check NA, but with boost, I'd have to re-work some of it for sure.

IIRC Cosworth did some research and basically the stock rods are sintered (i.e. not good for fatigue) and once you pass a fairly low torque output there is good chance the rod will fail with a sufficient number of cycles.

[DeliciousTuning]

Originally Posted by Goingnowherefast

Maybe. We'll see what Bill has in store for us later. I would really like a solution that doesn't touch the bottom end. Honestly any solution that doesn't require machining would be preferable. If we can figure out a reliable solution to increasing the rev limit while keeping the torque from dropping off, there's a good bit of horsepower increase right there.

That is the goal, before any serious engine work needs to be done. Over the past 6 (going on 7) years of working on this car, we have tested a lot of different things, while also learning more about the airflow characteristics of this specific engine.

There are more things that can be done to help airflow. Look at what headers do to the torque dip, that is pretty obvious to everyone. So with that in mind there is more that can be done but there is a balance between optimal vacuum and smooth unrestricted flow into the engine. Getting the correct ratio (with particular parts) is what will make power and of course dialing in ideal I/E cams angles, DI/PI angles for smooth airflow is what makes this all work. That is what we are working on and to see to what level we can maximize it.

I personally enjoy tuning NA cars over FI cars, because there is was may of an art and understanding needed to make things all work perfectly. FI, just add more boost and better gas, done.

Are there limitations, of course, but we have seen what is reliable on a forced induction vehicle, so I do not think rods, or pistons are going to be an issue here. Valvetrain and oil pressure are the only real concerns, so we are watching those a bit more closely. We have a couple engines we are testing in house, so you guys don't have too.

Cheers,
William Knose
Delicious Tuning

[evoto86]

Based on previous threads ITB's generate the most excitement on this forum for people staying NA even if they do little for performance people want trumpents on their boxer engines.

[ROFL it's Waffle]

Originally Posted by PulsarBeeerz

You can't put a price on passion, well you can but its over $9000.

I see what you did there with @KR-S 86's avatar!

[PulsarBeeerz]

Originally Posted by evoto86

Based on previous threads ITB's generate the most excitement on this forum for people staying NA even if they do little for performance people want trumpents on their boxer engines.

They seem to work with trumpets but only kinda work with the supplied plenum.. Solid is complete Greddy ITBs and dotted is stock intake.


[/IMG]

[nikitopo]

Originally Posted by DeliciousTuning

2013-1016 Intake Intake Manifold
- Stock 2013-2016 header,
- Stock 2017+ headers,

Have you seen any difference with the Stock 2017+ header? I have an 2013 Intake Manifold and Stock 2017+ header, but the tune is based on the older Stock header.

[soundman98]

Originally Posted by evoto86

Based on previous threads ITB's generate the most excitement on this forum for people staying NA even if they do little for performance people want trumpents on their boxer engines.

ITB's are on my long list. they make me feel warm and fuzzy.

[evoto86]

Originally Posted by soundman98

ITB's are on my long list. they make me feel warm and fuzzy.

That feeling when you install ITB's and take your car for a drive in the mountains, 86/BRZ owners deserve that feeling.

[DeliciousTuning]

Originally Posted by nikitopo

Have you seen any difference with the Stock 2017+ header? I have an 2013 Intake Manifold and Stock 2017+ header, but the tune is based on the older Stock header.

Yes there is a small difference and improvement on the 2017+ header over the previous 2013-2016 header. We will be spending more time on the dyno over couple months comparing the headers and adjusting the tune more specifically.

Cheers,
William Knose