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BRZ First-Gen (2012+) -- General Topics All discussions about the first-gen Subaru BRZ coupe


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Old 01-24-2019, 01:39 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by daiheadjai View Post
Hmmm... any thoughts on shift feel for the 128i?
I'm thinking to eventually get into one as my RWD daily and family car.
Looks promising so far: big trunk, enough rear-room to fit 2 car seats, seemingly-good reliability in NA base guise, decent gas mileage, supposedly-excellent hydraulic steering...
Haven't driven one yet, but my guess is it'll have that typical German feel we had been talking about. Somewhat longer throws and not a lot of feedback into each gate, but smooth and precise. Clutch throw will probably be on the long side. Just my guesses though.
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Old 01-24-2019, 06:45 PM   #86
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Are Nurburgring lap times the only thing that matters to you? Ironic you say that because our cars are designed around the philosophy of making driving fun, not necessarily fast. There are a whole slew of hot hatches and luxury sedans with faster lap times than our cars and I'd much rather drive my FR-S.

The auto industry has gotten so obsessed with meaningless lap times that it drives me crazy. And that's coming from a self-professed trackaholic. Who cares if a DSG is 0.5 second quicker per lap if you're having less fun?
The thread is about Supra.

But if you want to talk about our cars, then I agree. They are slow enough to tolerate manual transmission. But I don't need manual transmission to enjoy my car. It is the engagement of my car with the road that matters to me, not the engagement of my foot with the clutch.

If I am buying a car that is sold as a performance sport car, yeah I would like to know its Nurburgring performance. You know, that tells about "engagement" of the "sports" car with the road. I don't need that clutch to engage with my car ... anymore.
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Old 01-24-2019, 06:59 PM   #87
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So, when people look at these cars, only see the top end performance versions and don't even notice all those base models running around they miss the point of what is actually keeping them on the market. If people stopped buying the base the whole lineup would be gone in a flash since there would no longer be the income to warrant building the performance ones.
20 years ago I had the same arguments with people over why Nissan stopped selling the S15 Silvia and R34 GT-R.

I basically asked people if they would fork over $25k for a S15... but then the argument went downhill once you looked up sales numbers for the 2nd gen Eclipse base models vs the performance GS-T w/ 4G63 engines. You could take the same argument and look at Z32 sales numbers (NA vs TT), Supra sales numbers, 3000GT sales numbers...

The problem always exists: "everyone" wants their own "pure" sports cars, but there simply isn't enough of the public to justify building them. Japan may have had all the cool cars for a long time, but do you know what sells there? K-cars. Cars below 1600cc or 1300cc. Cars that work in streets in Tokyo and Osaka and other places with tiny streets.

In the end, everyone has a say but no one is thankful that Toyota had the balls to pull this one off, especially considering how fiscally conservative they are as a global company.

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Old 01-24-2019, 07:39 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by mav1178 View Post
20 years ago I had the same arguments with people over why Nissan stopped selling the S15 Silvia and R34 GT-R.

I basically asked people if they would fork over $25k for a S15... but then the argument went downhill once you looked up sales numbers for the 2nd gen Eclipse base models vs the performance GS-T w/ 4G63 engines. You could take the same argument and look at Z32 sales numbers (NA vs TT), Supra sales numbers, 3000GT sales numbers...

The problem always exists: "everyone" wants their own "pure" sports cars, but there simply isn't enough of the public to justify building them. Japan may have had all the cool cars for a long time, but do you know what sells there? K-cars. Cars below 1600cc or 1300cc. Cars that work in streets in Tokyo and Osaka and other places with tiny streets.

In the end, everyone has a say but no one is thankful that Toyota had the balls to pull this one off, especially considering how fiscally conservative they are as a global company.

-alex
I will give them credit once they offer a manual version
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Old 01-24-2019, 08:46 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by mrg666 View Post
The thread is about Supra.

But if you want to talk about our cars, then I agree. They are slow enough to tolerate manual transmission. But I don't need manual transmission to enjoy my car. It is the engagement of my car with the road that matters to me, not the engagement of my foot with the clutch.

If I am buying a car that is sold as a performance sport car, yeah I would like to know its Nurburgring performance. You know, that tells about "engagement" of the "sports" car with the road. I don't need that clutch to engage with my car ... anymore.
So because you only care about Nurburgring lap times and don't like driving stick anymore, Toyota should only offer the Supra with an auto? Why not just let people get what they like and you just be happy with your auto?

This reminds me of when Porsche tried to pull the same crap with their gt3 RS and caught such flack for it they realized they misread the market and created the 911 R. Except the reasoning is even more ridiculous in this case because it's just a 335 hp Supra, not some car that's legitimately going to light up the nurburgring lap time board.
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Old 01-25-2019, 01:14 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by mrg666 View Post
The thread is about Supra.

But if you want to talk about our cars, then I agree. They are slow enough to tolerate manual transmission. But I don't need manual transmission to enjoy my car. It is the engagement of my car with the road that matters to me, not the engagement of my foot with the clutch.

If I am buying a car that is sold as a performance sport car, yeah I would like to know its Nurburgring performance. You know, that tells about "engagement" of the "sports" car with the road. I don't need that clutch to engage with my car ... anymore.
Slow cars need manual transmission IOT not be blinding boring, and slow.

I find the engagement at knowing when, or when not to shift at any given RPM.

NBR=Marketing hype.

Maybe my car should be the "Queensland raceway" edition, tested and tuned at QR in 35°C heat, I could get a sticker or decal to show my friends.

I'm also not seeing any autos at the pointy end of any 86/BRZ series here.

Enjoy your Supra, if Toyota made it I might buy one.
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Old 01-25-2019, 08:44 AM   #91
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In theory Nurburgring would be a good measuring stick. In reality it is not due to traffic, weather and traffic. Do I say traffic? It is the sort of track where traffic can completely destroy a time. Weather can also be all over the place. It's a 14 mile track so some parts of the track can be wet while the rest is dry. I'd be willing to put money down that on the same day on a fully dry track, back to back with an empty track and the same driver that a manual Supra would come within 3 secs of an auto version. I sure as hell wouldn't give up on the fun factor of a manual for 3 secs on a 14 mile track. Especially considering it isn't a race car and would spend most of it's like in a daily commute with speed limits and traffic lights. People are way too hung up on specs on paper rather then raw driving entertainment.

As others have said, why can't ignorant dinosaurs like me have an option to row our own gears? Thank god Porsche got their shit together. Latest news is the manual will continue to live in the 992.
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Old 01-25-2019, 10:35 AM   #92
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As others have said, why can't ignorant dinosaurs like me have an option to row our own gears? Thank god Porsche got their shit together. Latest news is the manual will continue to live in the 992.

Because there just simply are not enough of us left to make it economically feasible for the car companies. It sucks but it is the reality of the situation. Mind you I remember back in the mid 70s when people were saying the MT would be gone in 5 more years so it has held out longer than expected. There is the option to move to Asia or Europe where the MT is still alive and well I suppose.
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Old 01-25-2019, 12:18 PM   #93
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Because there just simply are not enough of us left to make it economically feasible for the car companies. It sucks but it is the reality of the situation. Mind you I remember back in the mid 70s when people were saying the MT would be gone in 5 more years so it has held out longer than expected. There is the option to move to Asia or Europe where the MT is still alive and well I suppose.
Yep, same reason those of us that don't care about electric everything (windows/locks/etc) can't get a car without them. It's just taking longer with the transmission to get there because of fuel economy standards. In the end, those standards may end up being the nail in the coffin for most cars over the long haul.
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Old 01-25-2019, 12:23 PM   #94
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Are these things on the street yet? I could have sworn I saw the BMW version in traffic yesterday? Probably just a Z4 with some plastic bits.
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Old 01-25-2019, 12:55 PM   #95
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This may have been discussed already, but, if Toyota did not partner with Subaru to make the 86, do you think the 86 would be better or worse? That is if they decided to make it on their own of course.

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Old 01-25-2019, 01:09 PM   #96
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This may have been discussed already, but, if Toyota did not partner with Subaru to make the 86, do you think the 86 would be better or worse?
Far worse since it would not exist.
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Old 01-25-2019, 01:26 PM   #97
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The other thing is that even those listed "Pony" cars are all plummeting in sales numbers over the last two years. The general public is just losing interest in them and performance cars in general.
For the most part that's actually not true. The Mustang continues to do well. The Camaro's sales have gone down ever since they focused more on driving enjoyment / made it a sports car (oh the depressing irony there), and the Challenger's sales, despite the car being almost a decade old, are higher than ever.

Side note: the worst thing to ever happen to the Mustang was the Thunderbird being killed off. Now Ford has to use the Mustang to fill the large coupe hole in it's line up - hence, huge freaking car.

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FYI A80 Supra or US call it MkIV Supra is GT car more than sports car. So GT part haven't changed one single bit.
Anyone that's unaware that the A80 was a GT is ignorant. No disagreement there. However, since Toyota (strangely - probably b/c they had no choice from BMW) decided to make the A90 a 2 seater, it obviously is a more focused car this go around. Nevermind how many times has Tada said the car is all about driver enjoyment?

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To add, some sports car enthusiasts still admire and wanting to own GT-R (R35) and new NSX, even though it only comes AT. Porsche did AT only for 911 few yrs back, but I feel like that was strategic planning on their marketing side. To add to AT list, look at Ferrari, Lamborghini, McLaren and other hyper cars brands in there.
I'm sorry but that's 100% false. Porsche did AT only for the 991.1 GT3 and it created an uproar. They reoffered a manual (actually a brand newly developed 6sp manual) for the 991.2 GT3 that came out just 2 years later. However the 991 Turbo is exclusively PDK. But the lion's share of 911's sold are base, S, GTS, AWD models and those have always had a manual option. In fact they developed a 7sp manual specifically for the 991 generation. If we're keeping score that's 2 freshly developed manual transmissions for the 991 911. A far cry from AT only for the 911.


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Actually sales isn't really a cop out, it THE justification. If Toyota thought they would not sell everyone they built without the option, they would offer it. That said, I do agree it should be offered, assuming there was one available that didn't require an engineering project to get it to market.
From the beginning Toyota has said this will be a small volume car, on the magnitude of 15,000 cars worldwide (IIRC). At that volume, they would still sell every single car were it only offered with a manual transmission.

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meh, it would be a much easier pill to swallow if they weren't dumping money into other projects that do have a stick or that damn hypercar...



we've been fed a trillion excuses. Tada has said shifting feel is too compromised for transmissions that can hold as much as torque as they need, he has also said they are worried that offering a stick would hurt the 86 because that is apparently what differentiates the two and pretty sure I read that they didn't think a stick would help with the driving experience...
If the Supra's development has taught me only one thing, it's that nothing out of Tada's mouth makes any sense. Countless statements of his are illogical, inaccurate and flat out false. Take them all with a grain of salt.

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Will you listen if somebody explains? Cars are so much faster now that average arm/leg movement speed is not acceptable. Check Nurburgring top cars.
Who cares? Most sports cars are about driving enjoyment and driver involvement. Once a car is capable of 60 mph in less than 4 seconds does a few extra tenths even matter? Not really. If a PDK equipped car gets you around VIR 2 seconds faster than if you had 3 pedals are you gonna feel better about yourself? Doubtful, as there's no reason to.

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Interesting. I have, and while the Mcars usually have shorter throw shifters, I don't find the feedback and pedal action to be much better than the others.

Most interesting is that you rate the 350Z so low. The shifter on the 350z feels solid and very accurate to me. Can't remember the pedal action which probably means it was okay, neither good nor bad.

I'd rate the cars you mentioned like this:

S2000 A
NB Miata A-
BRZ A-
350z B
987 C+
E46/E90 M3 C+
E46//E90 C

When I called BMW manuals terrible I meant for a sports car. When compared to MTs in ecoboxes and trucks the BMW manuals are great. The mostly need more feedback and no delay in the clutch action. I can live with longish throws. Interesting that we disagree on where the Z and the Cayman end up.
Of all the cars I've owned with a manual transmission, I would rate my Cayman's shifter to be the worst. S2000>BRZ>GSR>Cayman. Still, I would take it over a PDK every day of the week and twice on Sundays. I have handled the shifter of a GT4 (sitting in a parking lot - wasn't able to drive it) and it felt very VERY GOOD. So even with the long cable shift linkages, it is apparently possible to improve the feel.
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Old 01-25-2019, 01:36 PM   #98
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This may have been discussed already, but, if Toyota did not partner with Subaru to make the 86, do you think the 86 would be better or worse? That is if they decided to make it on their own of course.
Almost an impossible question to answer really. There will be fanboys that will say that a whole Toyota would be better no matter what but the vision just could not be completed with what Toyota had. The big thing was they didn't have an engine that they felt was appropriate and that would be a huge stumbling block. Sure they could have developed their own but then the car would have cost an incredible amount more. Read page 11 of the attached and you will see what I mean. It just simply would not be the same car as it is if they had gone on their own. Whether it would have been "better" or "worse" would depend on what you think is wrong with it now.


https://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5274
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