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06-09-2013, 12:58 PM | #43 | |
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The Prelude was 3000lbs and cost $23,500 14 years ago. An SH model would've set you back $26,000. That's $35,109 in today's dollars according to the BLS CPI Inflation Calculator. Give or take an 8% "adjustment" you're still looking at a 200 hp, 3000lb FWD coupe 5 speed for $35,000 OTD if it were released today. The S2000, that was a $32,000 car. Given that same 8% "adjustment" it's a $43,000 OTD price for a 240 hp 2800lb (HEAVIER THAN THE FRS!) convertible, if it were released today. People keep bringing up the K20 engine.. it was a cool, I love it, but it fails emissions standards dramatically. End of story. And let's not even get started on the sales numbers of the NSX. Or price! They are definitely not 'affordable' cars. Maybe you are pining for the modified used market days.. and we never got the good stuff, anyways (Type R with exception of a few hundred for.. one year?). On the other hand.. Someone mentioned, the Accord Sport comes in a manual. I could be wrong but I don't see the Camry offered in a 'sport' version with a manual. To my knowledge it's just the Accord and the Mazda6 in that category [JDM 4 door sedans with 4 bangers]. What car hasn't gotten bigger and heavier in that respective class? Let alone the V6 Accord Coupe you can spec in a manual as well, which I'd argue this is the successor to the Prelude. And of course, you've HAD the Civic SI/Acura ILX (RSX) this whole time. I can't think of any other coupe with a V6 and manual that comes out of a Japanese car maker that isn't a luxury brand. I wouldn't say they've lost their way at all, the products given the market are there, and hell, they are now back in F1 with McLaren. It isn't like Toyota has been making fun, affordable cars for the past 14 years that didn't have a direct Honda competitor. No, in fact, Honda kept ON offering after Toyota threw in the towel. It took sleeping in bed with another manufacture [risk reduction] to bring out something cool, and that's the only cool thing they have (and it isn't even fully their own!!!). Now.. just because you don't like the products, doesn't mean they have or haven't been making them. |
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06-09-2013, 07:07 PM | #44 | |
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Not sure why you brought up the K20 (I didn't), but your point (that it would fail emissions standards today) is irrelevant for this discussion. Honda used to be synonymous with motorsport in the 1980's and 1990's (six consecutive constructors' championships in Formula 1, six consecutive drivers championships in CART). Honda was also known for being a builder of consumer cars that were light, sporty, and affordable relative to their competition. There's nothing hyperbolic or overdramatic about those statements.
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06-09-2013, 09:30 PM | #45 |
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06-09-2013, 10:14 PM | #46 | |
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I'd argue the S2000 was competing in the class below. The RX8, the 350Z, Crossfire, etc. The Boxster, Z4, SLK competed in their own pseduo luxury class. Someone buying a Benz wasn't crossing shopping a Honda. I'd like to hear your opinion on their values if released today as brand new models. If you have one? My point is these cars were not as cheap/affordable when new as you make them out to be in some false sense of nostalgia (and you're comparing the NSX to a god damn Ferrari... I don't care what it was supposed to compete with, a super car it was not, and that's why it died). And then you chose to ignore everything else I put and reiterated your original statement. Just look at the sales data, look at Honda's continued involvement in motorsport's both at grass roots (I don't remember Toyota leading the B spec series formation.. nope.. that was Honda and Mazda) and the top tier (Formula 1) and everything in between. The K20 was for someone else, didn't wanna multi quote. Here's each manufacture's US motorsports page: http://www.toyotaracing.com/ http://hpd.honda.com/motorsports/ Take from it whatever you'd like. |
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06-09-2013, 11:08 PM | #47 | |
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You can argue all you want about the S2000 competing in the class below, but it's a roadster and the only comparable roadsters at the time it was released were the Boxster, Z3/Z4, SLK, and TT Roadster. The 350z convertible was arguably a competitor as well, but that came later. If you wanted a 200+ hp sports car (in the original sense of the word, not the broad definition used today), those were your options at the time. The S2000 was created to be the affordable, practical option in that segment, and it clearly was. There are plenty of published reviews of the S2000 matched up against Boxsters, Z3/Z4's, and it in fact won a couple of those comparisons based on value and performance. http://www.caranddriver.com/comparis...mparison-tests Also Honda absolutely targeted the Ferrari 348 when it designed the NSX. That is public fact. All of the reviews compared it to the 348 (and later, the 355). In fact, the NSX was one of the reasons Ferrari quickly released the much-improved 355 because the NSX was comparable to the 348 -- many would argue better -- at a much cheaper cost. It was the affordable, practical car in its segment (hmm, is that refrain starting to sound familiar?) But feel free to ignore facts in stating your points. Lastly, your question as to whether I know what the CPI is, is pretty hilarious. My dad works at the US DOL as an economist and his sole job is to calculate the CPI. He and I have had plenty of debates about it (I've got an advanced degree in economics). Never know who you're dealing with, eh? Don't assume to know.
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06-10-2013, 01:10 AM | #48 | |
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06-10-2013, 08:40 AM | #49 | |||
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The second problem is that even with its passenger cars, Honda moved away from being the light/sporty option and over the past decade, that's shown. The current gen Accord is huge compared with 1-2 decades ago. The last comparison I saw featuring the Accord, it was the heaviest car in the comparison, even heavier than the Camry. Consumer Reports noted the Accord bloat in their review of the 2011-2012 Accord: http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthrea...cord-goes-soft Even chief engineer of the new NSX, Ted Klaus, acknowledges that Honda moved away from sporty offerings in recent years and is now trying to head back towards that direction: Quote:
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06-10-2013, 11:47 AM | #50 | |
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2003 Matrix XRS - Civic SI Celica GT-S - RSX type S Solara? - Accord Coupe MR2 Spyder - S2000 IS300 - TL - NSX (although I grudgingly put this in ) 2008 - Civic SI - TSX Solara? - Accord Coupe - S2000 IS350 - TL 2013 FRS - Civic SI - ILX IS350 - TL - TSX As for the current 'overweight' Accord, it was considered most fun to drive in this recent comparison; http://www.edmunds.com/hyundai/sonat...ison-test.html And here it got 2nd, also praised for fun to drive http://www.caranddriver.com/comparis...rd-ex-l-page-6 The current Type R to take on the Ring time, while very cool and interesting, isn't something we'll see. In fact, wasn't that going to be limited to a few hundred production cars? Anyways, point being, whether the product is good or not, the fact that they've offered/still offer to sell a product that can be considered sporty - that's my point. Honda has been doing it in accord (ha.. ha... ha) with the market/competitors [and I'd argue better] and so there's no need to be nostalgic for a brand that's "lost it's way". It isn't like they've turned into Lotus. |
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06-10-2013, 12:23 PM | #51 | |
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But the bigger question is, why the specific comparison to Toyota? I'm making an absolute statement about Honda, not a relative comment about how sporty Honda has been relative to Toyota over the years. Looking at Toyota's offerings that you've written out, they seem to have similarly lost some of their sporty models in the 2000's, so a direct comparison between Honda and Toyota might not be the best way to evaluate Honda over the years. Also for the sake of thoroughness, I'll just point out that the IS-F and LFA seem to be missing on the Toyota list.
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06-10-2013, 12:29 PM | #52 |
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^ Not only that, but Honda was competing with more than just Toyota. Plenty of other automakers out there, so just because the car didn't have a counterpart from Toyota didn't mean that it was uncontested.
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06-10-2013, 03:03 PM | #53 | |
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Please spare me the historic lessons, I was once a Honda fanboy (Del Sol, FA5 Si, etc.) |
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06-10-2013, 03:20 PM | #54 |
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I mean if you want to get all cute with your "facts", at least make them relevant. If Honda has been "building cars here for 30 years" why were the previous NSX's built in Tochigi and Suzuka? HMMMMMMMMMMMMMM BUT DEY HAZ PLANT IN O HAI O??
The s2000? Built in Tochigi and later in Suzuka. The Integra and RSX? Suzuka. Prelude? Sayama. The Civic Type R was mostly built in Suzuka, besides some production in the UK for certain models like the FN2. So where are the performance models Honda has been building in Ohio for the last 30 years? Maybe there weren't any. That's why this whole thing is ridiculous. Bean counters caused this Someone on autoblog said it best, I want a Vette from USA, 911 from Germany, and NSX from Japan. |
06-10-2013, 03:23 PM | #55 |
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Pound for pound, I see Honda and Toyota being the only two top tier Japanese brands - apples to apples. Responding to global markets/anticipating trends, running successful profitable companies, maintaining brand involvement/recognition, miscellaneous development (aircraft, hybrid, robotics, technology). Nissan/Renault alliance was consciously removed from the equation.
If opening up to other manufactures, I'd throw my hat in the Mazda ring for being consistently the sportiest, with also among the most questionable quality, and in dire financial straits post Ford breakup. LFA was left out because you could technically not purchase one (right?), very few were made, and in no way does it fall under the affordable category regardless of what comparison you are making to its competitors. |
06-10-2013, 03:32 PM | #56 | |
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I think there's a yellow one on sale (or for lease) at South County Lexus, if I'm not mistaken. An associate of mine who is on her seventh Lexus (she's not a bad driver or anything, she's just in her 60s and has money to buy them) said that she got to ride in that dealership's LFA earlier this year. |
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