FRS/BRZ vs. 2013 Civic SI

[Coheed]

The K series is a beast though. You can make serious NA power with that engine. It's the best 4 cylinder engine around for modding. 300+whp NA is amazing. I don't see any FA20 pulling that off very easily. A few simple mods can net 250whp and that is fantastic power.

I almost bought a civic SI before putting money down on a BRZ. 8th gen sedans are pretty sweet cars. 9th gen is just meh. I just wish the FA had the potential that the K series has in stock form.

RWD is a better platform to start with. But I wouldn't rule out the SI based on that alone. They can perform very well at the track in stock form, but with a little mods it will really come alive. Making power is cheap in the SI vs the FRS, just because mods create such large gains on the K.

I'm just being a devil's advocate here. I love the BRZ. But the SI shouldn't be shunned so quickly. They are both great cars.

[2013GTRNate]

Originally Posted by TouchMyHonda

You guy's cant compare your cars to a civic Si. The civic is far superior to both in terms of handling and potential to handle better.

The SI can be set up to over-steer with very little money in modification. It's is just about the closest FF platform in terms of attaining RWD like characteristics.

Or just buy a RWD car like the BRZ/FR-S with real RWD characteristics… :happy0180:

[SonnyBRZ]

Had a 8th gen civic (08) Si coupe, i wouldn't say the civic is bad at all, very decent daily driver with lots more usable room than the BRZ. However, first time taking my stock BRZ to the track i realized it has a lot more potential and a ton more fun than the Si (even with coils, sticky tires, and decent amount of camber) even though i was about 10km/h slower down the straightaway compare to the si which had a tune and exhaust, etc. The Si can carry decent speed if you set it up correct, but you will never have that balance like a frs/brz has. This car really is unique at this sticker price...

IMO, if you are comparing its driving characteristics (ie. feedback, overall balance, fun factor), i would say the Si is no match. If you are comparing hp to hp, track time, etc, then they MAY be similar. It really comes down to what you are looking for. If you really like driving or this is not your DD or you are willing to give up interior and truck space, then i believe the choice is very clear.

[TouchMyHonda]

Originally Posted by 2013GTRNate

Or just buy a RWD car like the BRZ/FR-S with real RWD characteristics… :happy0180:

Oh yea what was I thinking! You didn't happen to read the rest of the thread did you?

[Aki]

Sorry I don't think you can be a serious auto enthusiast if you blow off a car simply because it's FWD. BRZ lost in a comparo with the Renault Megane Trophy, a FWD car. Plenty of FWD are very rewarding to drive.

I have an 06 Civic Si--granted it's modded a bit, but stock for stock, the K20 engine is a much more entertaining powerplant than the BRZ/FR-S. The problem with the FR-S engine isn't that it doesn't have enough power--it's just not a very fun engine to wring out. There's a deadzone of torque in the mid-range that makes revving a chore. Steering is a toss up in the 8thgen Si to the FR-S. Both are EPS, both aren't as communicative as I'd want. Chassis rigidity the FR-S is superior to the Si.

That said, there's simply no replacing the feeling of RWD in corners. My Si has been tweaked to be more oversteer-prone (more negative camber up front, stiffer rear rebound damping), and it's neutral in the corners, with even a bit of lift-off oversteer if you try. But the FR-S feels like a proper sports car, and you can feel the rear traction breaking, even if it's not dorifuto-tail sliding.

9G feels a lot worse than the 8G. Numb and slower steering, more mushy in suspension feel. Engine isn't as fun to rev. Between the 9G and FR-S, FR-S is better in almost every way.

[raul]

Originally Posted by gwascopter

fwd sporty vs rwd sport, the end.

Same reason I didn't pay attention to the Genesis vs. Civic Si reviews around 2 years ago when I was considering a Genesis.

[danwat1234]

Originally Posted by Turbowned

I just ran into an acquaintance of mine who drag races DSM's; he picked up a 2013 Civic Si and was showing it to me... I felt like saying "why didn't you get an FR-S or a WRX?"

The general consensus of Scion FR-S vs. Civic HFP was that the FR-S was better, so there's no way a regular Si would be a better choice, either.

Well the 2013 Civic Si isn't out yet, so that acquaintance was lying I guess.

2013 Civic Si and regular Civics should have Direct Injection (Earth Dreams engines) , or at least by the 2014 year.

[Turbowned]

Originally Posted by danwat1234

Well the 2013 Civic Si isn't out yet, so that acquaintance was lying I guess.

2013 Civic Si and regular Civics should have Direct Injection (Earth Dreams engines) , or at least by the 2014 year.

Oh, well it must've been a 2012 then. He didn't specify year, he just said he bought it brand new.

[Wolfking]

Originally Posted by triwoody

so let's hear your thoughts on how these two compare.

They don't, It's front wheel drive! 'Nuff said!

[WolfpackS2k]

Originally Posted by danwat1234

Well the 2013 Civic Si isn't out yet, so that acquaintance was lying I guess.

2013 Civic Si and regular Civics should have Direct Injection (Earth Dreams engines) , or at least by the 2014 year.

Absolutely no information has been revealed about any future Civic Si using an Earth Dreams engine. Anything at this point is just hearsay so even bringing it up is completely pointless.

[leechungsr]

Originally Posted by crazyyankeefan

nor will it handle like a real sports car.

Yes the frs/brz handle great, but what about the motor? Everyone says, it's not meant for straight line blah blah blah, but really, is this a valid excuse? I just don't see it. If this car made an NA 240hp....holy....

I just can't get past it. Look at Honda's F20B from the Accord SiR from the 90s (yes now more than 15 years old, before direct injection and fancy electronics).

F20B
Torque: 145 lb/ft @ 5500 rpm
Horsepower: 197 hp @ 7000 rpm

D4-S
Torque: 151 lb/ft at 6,600 rpm
Horsepower: 200 hp at 7,000 rpm

Now that's only comparing 2.0L Honda motors. If you get into the 2.2L, then the D4-S just gets destroyed. Hell, the B18C5 matches the D4-S well too, but I left it out of comparison because ITRs are fairly limited.

[2forme]

Originally Posted by leechungsr

Yes the frs/brz handle great, but what about the motor? Everyone says, it's not meant for straight line blah blah blah, but really, is this a valid excuse? I just don't see it. If this car made an NA 240hp....holy....

I just can't get past it. Look at Honda's F20B from the Accord SiR from the 90s (yes now more than 15 years old, before direct injection and fancy electronics).

F20B
Torque: 145 lb/ft @ 5500 rpm
Horsepower: 197 hp @ 7000 rpm

D4-S
Torque: 151 lb/ft at 6,600 rpm
Horsepower: 200 hp at 7,000 rpm

Now that's only comparing 2.0L Honda motors. If you get into the 2.2L, then the D4-S just gets destroyed. Hell, the B18C5 matches the D4-S well too, but I left it out of comparison because ITRs are fairly limited.

Well then why not compare to the 3SGE? 92-99 was 180 hp / 141 ft-lbs without fancy variable valve timing... then in 2000 it went to 197 hp with vvt.

The B18C5 can't get up a hill on its own. Plus it needs a secondary cam profile to make it's rated HP. I had a Civic Si with a K20 and waiting for VTEC was worse than turbo lag LOL.

Show me any other NA 2 liter that can make 140ft lbs to the wheels at 2500 RPM and 6500 RPM without a secondary cam profile.

Originally Posted by Aki

Sorry I don't think you can be a serious auto enthusiast if you blow off a car simply because it's FWD. BRZ lost in a comparo with the Renault Megane Trophy, a FWD car. Plenty of FWD are very rewarding to drive.

I have an 06 Civic Si--granted it's modded a bit, but stock for stock, the K20 engine is a much more entertaining powerplant than the BRZ/FR-S. The problem with the FR-S engine isn't that it doesn't have enough power--it's just not a very fun engine to wring out. There's a deadzone of torque in the mid-range that makes revving a chore. Steering is a toss up in the 8thgen Si to the FR-S. Both are EPS, both aren't as communicative as I'd want. Chassis rigidity the FR-S is superior to the Si.

That said, there's simply no replacing the feeling of RWD in corners. My Si has been tweaked to be more oversteer-prone (more negative camber up front, stiffer rear rebound damping), and it's neutral in the corners, with even a bit of lift-off oversteer if you try. But the FR-S feels like a proper sports car, and you can feel the rear traction breaking, even if it's not dorifuto-tail sliding.

9G feels a lot worse than the 8G. Numb and slower steering, more mushy in suspension feel. Engine isn't as fun to rev. Between the 9G and FR-S, FR-S is better in almost every way.

I had an 08, and it was a Civic first, sporty later. Having a power band from 2500-6700 is more entertaining for every day spirited driving than the 6000-8000 of the Civic. I can push the gas in the BRZ and it moves. In the Civic, I had to downshift 1-2 gears to get it to move.

The power dip is there, yes, but I find it leaves as fast as it comes (even without my tune). I wouldn't go back to the Civic at all. It was just way overhyped for what it was. The same can be said about the 86 right now with all the mags slobbering all over it. But in my comparison and experience, the 86 actually backs up most of its claims.

[Turbowned]

Originally Posted by leechungsr

Yes the frs/brz handle great, but what about the motor? Everyone says, it's not meant for straight line blah blah blah, but really, is this a valid excuse? I just don't see it. If this car made an NA 240hp....holy....

I just can't get past it. Look at Honda's F20B from the Accord SiR from the 90s (yes now more than 15 years old, before direct injection and fancy electronics).

F20B
Torque: 145 lb/ft @ 5500 rpm
Horsepower: 197 hp @ 7000 rpm

D4-S
Torque: 151 lb/ft at 6,600 rpm
Horsepower: 200 hp at 7,000 rpm

Now that's only comparing 2.0L Honda motors. If you get into the 2.2L, then the D4-S just gets destroyed. Hell, the B18C5 matches the D4-S well too, but I left it out of comparison because ITRs are fairly limited.

Yep, Honda builds great engines. They are an engine builder first and foremost. It's just too bad that most of those great engines go into front-wheel-drive cars. If Subaru wanted to build an engine that rivaled the F22C in terms of output, sure they could, but the cost of the car would have to go up, and the fuel economy would likely suffer. Remember the S2000 isn't princely on fuel like some of it's FWD cousins.

[industrial]

Originally Posted by leechungsr

Yes the frs/brz handle great, but what about the motor? Everyone says, it's not meant for straight line blah blah blah, but really, is this a valid excuse? I just don't see it. If this car made an NA 240hp....holy....

I just can't get past it. Look at Honda's F20B from the Accord SiR from the 90s (yes now more than 15 years old, before direct injection and fancy electronics).

F20B
Torque: 145 lb/ft @ 5500 rpm
Horsepower: 197 hp @ 7000 rpm

D4-S
Torque: 151 lb/ft at 6,600 rpm
Horsepower: 200 hp at 7,000 rpm

Now that's only comparing 2.0L Honda motors. If you get into the 2.2L, then the D4-S just gets destroyed. Hell, the B18C5 matches the D4-S well too, but I left it out of comparison because ITRs are fairly limited.

Welcome to the modern age of emissions. If Honda was so freaking awesome, why aren't they pulling 250hp out of a 2.0 today? Emissions, cafe fuel economy standards.... I'm tired of these idiotic arguments.