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Engine, Exhaust, Transmission Discuss the FR-S | 86 | BRZ engine, exhaust and drivetrain.


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Old 06-04-2012, 05:02 PM   #197
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Originally Posted by Bahraini86 View Post
I the issue here is the limitation of the DI system, not the compression. Can't see a budget way to make the DI work effeciently at higher boost!
When it comes to boost, DI actually supplements the fuel needs of the forced air. So its actually not a limitation especially as a D4-S applications.

I think the biggest mistake people are going to make when boosting this car is lowering the compression to accept more boost to the point where the DI becomes useless. DI's biggest advantage is providing a weak stratified mixture at all loads and still provide the necessarily homogeneous fuel mixture for TQ and performance. But to make DI work properly is using that high compression and piston swirl shape. To compensate we would need change the injection profile and cycle somehow to retain that homogeneous mixture otherwise it would be just shooting way to lean to warrant any benefits.

But any mistakes can also be masked by increasing the flow to the port injector.

We arn't anywhere close to maxing out DI injectors..and the port injectors still provide good intake fuel certain loads and boosting anywhere from 7lbs-12lbs on a appropriately sized turbo, sounds pretty good using factory parts with a marginal tune no more invasive than a simple timing and fuel correction at the start of powerband.

If we are looking at boosts around 15lbs-20lbs, or upwards of 30lbs...there is no cheap way regardless of any direction you look to support those numbers digitally and physically.
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Old 06-04-2012, 06:12 PM   #198
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DI certainly lessens the dangers when it comes to boosting a high compression engine. I suppose the limits still have to be explored as DI is relatively new. As far as the D-4S system goes, using those two injectors in concert should be a major advantage in tuning. The need to upgrade to larger injectors should be much higher in the tuning process as opposed to single injector setups. I'm really, really curious to see what happens when a company like Cosworth throws every trick in the book at the FA20 head! That high compression and D-4S system may be a blessing in disguise when it comes to building a NA beast motor!!
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Old 06-05-2012, 01:54 AM   #199
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WingsofWar View Post
When it comes to boost, DI actually supplements the fuel needs of the forced air. So its actually not a limitation especially as a D4-S applications.

I think the biggest mistake people are going to make when boosting this car is lowering the compression to accept more boost to the point where the DI becomes useless. DI's biggest advantage is providing a weak stratified mixture at all loads and still provide the necessarily homogeneous fuel mixture for TQ and performance. But to make DI work properly is using that high compression and piston swirl shape. To compensate we would need change the injection profile and cycle somehow to retain that homogeneous mixture otherwise it would be just shooting way to lean to warrant any benefits.

But any mistakes can also be masked by increasing the flow to the port injector.

We arn't anywhere close to maxing out DI injectors..and the port injectors still provide good intake fuel certain loads and boosting anywhere from 7lbs-12lbs on a appropriately sized turbo, sounds pretty good using factory parts with a marginal tune no more invasive than a simple timing and fuel correction at the start of powerband.

If we are looking at boosts around 15lbs-20lbs, or upwards of 30lbs...there is no cheap way regardless of any direction you look to support those numbers digitally and physically.
On the fa20 turbo engine showed for the new wrxs (I think) wasn't using the DI. Something makes me think a stock boosted brz wont include DI
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Old 06-05-2012, 03:11 AM   #200
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On the fa20 turbo engine showed for the new wrxs (I think) wasn't using the DI. Something makes me think a stock boosted brz wont include DI
depending on how complicated tuning/cracking DI, i think this would be a good option,

ditching the DI system and just running 4 upgraded port injectors seems to be the least headache solution (but counter technological advancement)
that would also mean using conventional piston tops 9.5 to 1 and the aftermarket ECU's we have on the market now, and wait for a massive R&D spike from companys to include DI tuning in there software, maybe a motec m800 changed with 4 feeds controlling the port injectors and 4 other feeds controlling DI injectors,

does anybody know if the DI injector maps are a gradual change over or is it quite abrupt? sort of a slight overlap of the two injector maps? i would imagine a lot of trouble for boost tuning if it was quite abrupt, leaning/spiking
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Old 06-05-2012, 04:30 AM   #201
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On the fa20 turbo engine showed for the new wrxs (I think) wasn't using the DI. Something makes me think a stock boosted brz wont include DI
We were shown the FA16DIT at the most recent unveiling of subaru products. Which is a FA variant 1.6 Liter Direct Injection Turbo. We have yet to see the FA205/FA20DIT physically but we are confident its coming.

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Originally Posted by noAE86 View Post
depending on how complicated tuning/cracking DI, i think this would be a good option,

ditching the DI system and just running 4 upgraded port injectors seems to be the least headache solution (but counter technological advancement)
that would also mean using conventional piston tops 9.5 to 1 and the aftermarket ECU's we have on the market now, and wait for a massive R&D spike from companys to include DI tuning in there software, maybe a motec m800 changed with 4 feeds controlling the port injectors and 4 other feeds controlling DI injectors,

does anybody know if the DI injector maps are a gradual change over or is it quite abrupt? sort of a slight overlap of the two injector maps? i would imagine a lot of trouble for boost tuning if it was quite abrupt, leaning/spiking
Right, but at the point of ditching the DI and the cost to make up for lost primary fuel characteristics...might as well swap the engine for an EJ207-EJ257.

Although i haven't seen the real FA20 maps, port fuel looks like it shuts off abruptly, but doesn't seem to effect AFRs considering at medium load the DI is performing at its best.On dynos we are seeing 10AFRS at WOT optimal powerband on a homogeneous mixture from a weak stratified charge. A mixture profile which port fuel will never achieve.
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Old 06-05-2012, 10:21 AM   #202
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unfortunately in some countries your not allowed to swap engines out side of what was available from factory, this includes the country im in now, china, the only real inspections they do here is engine code matching, (for road cars)

and in new zealand where i'd do most of my racing, the racing class may specify stock block, porting, FI and internal work allowed but has to be stock block maybe head, unless i was to run in the unlimited class but my pockets are not that deep,

i'd probably not delete the DI, just disable it until dyno tuners play around with it more and are confidant its working well, we have a spare m800 around that would work with meth/water injection to compensate for DI cooling,
i know very little about DI and boxer engines so i might just be spitting in the wind, going backwards maybe retarded but its safe, and if the wrx engine is close to a fa20 with out DI then i'd have to investigate what is interchangeable, swap everything part from block hmmm...
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Old 06-05-2012, 11:11 AM   #203
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Originally Posted by WingsofWar View Post

Right, but at the point of ditching the DI and the cost to make up for lost primary fuel characteristics...might as well swap the engine for an EJ207-EJ257.
You'll need the transmission as well. The starter is on the opposite side.
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Old 06-05-2012, 11:28 AM   #204
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We just have to be patient at this point. Considering that EcuTek has already cracked the ECU, we will know the characteristics of this system soon enough. Judging by the approach that Toyota have taken with the 86 (blank sheet starting point) I believe the FA20 is in a low state of tune with power waiting to be found and exploited. With the ECU being cracked so easily (relatively of course) and Perrin making 8 whp with an early prototype exhaust (extremely good on a modern 4 cyl) I think the FA20 is going to be a gem!
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Old 06-05-2012, 07:05 PM   #205
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Originally Posted by WingsofWar View Post
We were shown the FA16DIT at the most recent unveiling of subaru products. Which is a FA variant 1.6 Liter Direct Injection Turbo. We have yet to see the FA205/FA20DIT physically but we are confident its coming.
Actually they debut a turbo version of the FA20 with a 10.6:1 compression ratio.
296hp, 295 torque

Although I think I was wrong about the DI, they just wont be using toyotas D4-S dual direct/port injection
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Old 06-05-2012, 07:55 PM   #206
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Actually they debut a turbo version of the FA20 with a 10.6:1 compression ratio.
296hp, 295 torque

Although I think I was wrong about the DI, they just wont be using toyotas D4-S dual direct/port injection
Oh yeah...my mind totally blew through that recent debut..
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Old 12-14-2012, 04:28 PM   #207
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