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Old 10-18-2019, 08:23 AM   #141
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soooo......

Reports are getting leaked on the testing of the new C8 Corvette Stingrey and it does not look good sad to say.........
@rennlistuser3, great personal prospective write up. Thanks for doing that.

My prospective is a little different. The reviews I've seen are overwhelmingly positive and seem a bit like they were written by Olympic judges, they don't want to give the current C8 models top scores because they want to see what is coming next first.

I'm not surprised there were some compromises, you don't get to this price point without that. But, I consider this the true next evolution of the Corvette (something I never expected I would say) and think its one hell of a deal for what you are getting.

I've also made no secret out of the fact that I have a different prospective on GM reliability than most having had multiple GM products that went well over 200,000 miles. The Corvette is truly the only sports car over $50,000 in price I would consider buying because I know I could still be driving it 150,000 miles later with minimal cost.

As far as your $80,000 price range, you want what you want, I get that but I would be quite happy with the base Z51 package at $64,995. I have never been willing to pay for expensive add-ons. That is one hell of a car for that price.

Will it have some compromises, sure, all cars do. But at that price I'll also be willing to drive it on the street. I can't honestly say that about any supercar it compares to.
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Old 10-18-2019, 12:39 PM   #142
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@rennlistuser3, great personal prospective write up. Thanks for doing that.

My prospective is a little different. The reviews I've seen are overwhelmingly positive and seem a bit like they were written by Olympic judges, they don't want to give the current C8 models top scores because they want to see what is coming next first.

I'm not surprised there were some compromises, you don't get to this price point without that. But, I consider this the true next evolution of the Corvette (something I never expected I would say) and think its one hell of a deal for what you are getting.

I've also made no secret out of the fact that I have a different prospective on GM reliability than most having had multiple GM products that went well over 200,000 miles. The Corvette is truly the only sports car over $50,000 in price I would consider buying because I know I could still be driving it 150,000 miles later with minimal cost.

As far as your $80,000 price range, you want what you want, I get that but I would be quite happy with the base Z51 package at $64,995. I have never been willing to pay for expensive add-ons. That is one hell of a car for that price.

Will it have some compromises, sure, all cars do. But at that price I'll also be willing to drive it on the street. I can't honestly say that about any supercar it compares to.
yeah a lot of what you say is on my mind too.

One of the main allures of the Corvette is stuff you're saying, like still be driving it at 150,000 with minimal cost.

Without mentioning other brand names, I know for a fact that some others will cost you 20,000 USD just for an engine rebuilt! and this is no Ferrari.

I guess maybe I'm too harsh on the car cause I was expecting more. I hope I'm proven wrong in the coming days.

I might end up getting one one day anyway cause I still have V8 sports car on my bucket list of things to do. Just not likely to be this C8, at least not new.

Actually, come to think of it, you make a good point of just ordering the 65k USD version of this car. That really not that bad.
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Old 10-18-2019, 04:12 PM   #143
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All the discussion around the C8 just proves the old adage "You just can't please everyone".

I think that GM did an incredible job on the C8 and I think that if you're disappointed, your expectations weren't realistic and you got caught up too much in the hype and speculation surrounding it drummed up on the internet. The C8 is not a supercar. But it's a mass produced car that can run with some of them. It's definitely not the letdown that the Supra is.

The base C8 is $60k. How can anyone complain about the added cost of options? The options available for us 86/BRZ owners from the factory are a joke compared to how you can configure a C8. Do you know how much more expensive it is for a company to offer so many options?

Just like aftermarket parts, I wouldn't expect NOT to pay for added options. Hell, I've spent close to $20k in mods on my BRZ. That's friggin' 2/3 the original purchase price for the car!

Adding $20k in options to a $60k car isn't unrealistic at all. Has anyone looked at how much options cost on a Tesla Model X? The red paint options adds $2500. Black wheels add $5,500! 6-seat interior adds $6500. In comparison, the C8's options seem very reasonably priced to me - on par with aftermarket choices. Note that all factory options include installation; which isn't included on aftermarket mods.

86 owners complain about the road noise in our cars. "Where can I buy some dynamat?" Potential C8 owners are afraid they can't hear the engine as the cabin is "too insulated". People are going to complain about not enough engine noise, some will want to hear the radio. Everyone is going in with different expectations, meaning not everyone is going to be completely happy.

Everything in a base car like the C8 is going to be some sort of compromise, and GM engineers have considered all the options and made their decisions. The base C8 is meant for the masses, so to speak. That's why cars like the ZR1 exist - it's not meant for the masses.

Even after reading some of the more lukewarm reviews on the C8, I'm still blown away about what GM is able to offer that that price.
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Old 10-18-2019, 05:20 PM   #144
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Everything in a base car like the C8 is going to be some sort of compromise, and GM engineers have considered all the options and made their decisions. The base C8 is meant for the masses, so to speak. That's why cars like the ZR1 exist - it's not meant for the masses.
You do make a good point about this version of the C8 being for the masses. They did even state the extra understeer they dialed in is for people switching to MR not to get caught off guard with the changed driving dynamics.

I guess I can't blame Chevy for choosing what they chose they have to appeal to the larger audience which is not me at least.

Looking forward to the Z06 or Grand sport version. Hopefully those will be edgy demons.
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Old 10-19-2019, 03:30 AM   #145
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Here are two articles worthy of note:

C8 Corvette Stingray Vs 992 911 Carrera S



C8 Stingray Vs C7 Stingray

It's amazing that after decades and decades the Corvette Vs. 911 rivalry is still more or less the same as it ever was. I feel like I'm reading the same comparison made for these two cars but decades ago. I guess each still stick to their respective heritage.

For C8 Vs. C7 the most important take home message is that the C8 is now a much easier car to drive.

I'm more impressed now with the C8 after reading these two articles.

Also have to admit, for my own personal taste the C8 looks far prettier than the 911. This is very subjective I know but that's my take on it. The C8 sure looks like a Ferrari made by GM.

I'll wait a bit but this car is likely to be in my future in some form.
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Old 10-19-2019, 12:08 PM   #146
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You do make a good point about this version of the C8 being for the masses. They did even state the extra understeer they dialed in is for people switching to MR not to get caught off guard with the changed driving dynamics.

I guess I can't blame Chevy for choosing what they chose they have to appeal to the larger audience which is not me at least.

Looking forward to the Z06 or Grand sport version. Hopefully those will be edgy demons.
If the understeer is as bad as reviews are making it out to be, it's disappointing (especially if those cars are equipped with the Z51 package). But one thing I haven't seen is discussion about is how well the car responds to trail-braking. If you can mitigate some of the understeer by adjusting your driving, it might not be a huge deal.
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Old 10-19-2019, 11:19 PM   #147
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If the understeer is as bad as reviews are making it out to be, it's disappointing (especially if those cars are equipped with the Z51 package). But one thing I haven't seen is discussion about is how well the car responds to trail-braking. If you can mitigate some of the understeer by adjusting your driving, it might not be a huge deal.
Honestly I'm surprised about this but the reviews are still pretty sparse to this day on the car. You'd think a car this hot would have full very detailed reviews by the top car journals by now and then we'd know exactly how it is. Maybe it's the strike at GM.

But anyway, as it stands I think this C8 is a huge success story for GM already and it'll only get better and better from now on.
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Old 10-20-2019, 08:30 AM   #148
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If the understeer is as bad as reviews are making it out to be, it's disappointing (especially if those cars are equipped with the Z51 package). But one thing I haven't seen is discussion about is how well the car responds to trail-braking. If you can mitigate some of the understeer by adjusting your driving, it might not be a huge deal.
There are lawyers involved so the understeer on the base model (with or without z51) is not surprising to me. My problem with the c8 is partly the interior layout (button row is annoying in real life) and primarily that don’t think I could fit with a helmet on with the roof installed. My head was right at the mounting holes without the helmet with the seat all the way down. Maybe the comp seats go lower as these were gt2 seats.

Either way I’m canceling my order. I just don’t think the c8 z51 will be enough to beat my zl1 1le. I’ll reconsider when the grand sport and z06 are out though.
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Old 10-20-2019, 12:10 PM   #149
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There are lawyers involved so the understeer on the base model (with or without z51) is not surprising to me. My problem with the c8 is partly the interior layout (button row is annoying in real life) and primarily that don’t think I could fit with a helmet on with the roof installed. My head was right at the mounting holes without the helmet with the seat all the way down. Maybe the comp seats go lower as these were gt2 seats.

Either way I’m canceling my order. I just don’t think the c8 z51 will be enough to beat my zl1 1le. I’ll reconsider when the grand sport and z06 are out though.
It's interesting that you say the C8 does not fit you with helmet whereas the FT86 does (I assume it does since you have one). I was under the impression that the C8's large proportions were in excuse to making it very spacious inside to fit taller people. Does this mean the FT86 is more spacious than the C8 inside?

Regarding the understeer, the 992 911 does not seem to have such and they sell fine without fear of lawyers I think? honestly I just think GM does not have the proper experience on how to tune an MR car and it's a learning curve for them as opposed to say 911 that had decades to dial out understeer even in a RR car. I hope they figure it out by the time of the Z06 & Grand Sport.
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Old 10-20-2019, 12:48 PM   #150
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It's interesting that you say the C8 does not fit you with helmet whereas the FT86 does (I assume it does since you have one). I was under the impression that the C8's large proportions were in excuse to making it very spacious inside to fit taller people. Does this mean the FT86 is more spacious than the C8 inside?

Regarding the understeer, the 992 911 does not seem to have such and they sell fine without fear of lawyers I think? honestly I just think GM does not have the proper experience on how to tune an MR car and it's a learning curve for them as opposed to say 911 that had decades to dial out understeer even in a RR car. I hope they figure it out by the time of the Z06 & Grand Sport.
By spec the ft86 has less headroom. (.9") but that's always based on a specific seat setting and I don't know which each used for either. Also since the top was off the car I couldn't really see if it's designed to allow additional height in the shell I was just comparing to the holes that it slides into. Once they are sitting around the dealership lot I'll try again but with a helmet. The 86 is close for me but I fit fine with a helmet in it. I believe that I run the seat more reclined than I'd prefer to do so though. I normally track the ZLE these days as that HP and TQ are so addicting and cornering speeds are no different than a somewhat built 86. Now brake feel compared to an 86 with Essex brakes... lol another story there.

I'll probably track the next 86 more (thanks to @Opie for dealing with its delivery today!)..

As for the 911, they understeer if you drive them wrong. The RR layout makes it easy for massive understeer under throttle. Trail braking is absolutely key for driving one fast at the track. I doubt these reviewers forgot the c8 was mid engine (which in my experience has the best balance of all layouts) so I have to suspect that Chevy built in understeer in case their average corvette car show buyer bought them and didn't have the talent to actually drive them.

Either way the base car with z51 still doesn't compete well against the ZLE I suspect so I'll cancel and consider a higher end model once they are available for far under MSRP....
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Old 10-20-2019, 01:20 PM   #151
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By spec the ft86 has less headroom. (.9") but that's always based on a specific seat setting and I don't know which each used for either. Also since the top was off the car I couldn't really see if it's designed to allow additional height in the shell I was just comparing to the holes that it slides into. Once they are sitting around the dealership lot I'll try again but with a helmet. The 86 is close for me but I fit fine with a helmet in it. I believe that I run the seat more reclined than I'd prefer to do so though. I normally track the ZLE these days as that HP and TQ are so addicting and cornering speeds are no different than a somewhat built 86. Now brake feel compared to an 86 with Essex brakes... lol another story there.

I'll probably track the next 86 more (thanks to @Opie for dealing with its delivery today!)..

As for the 911, they understeer if you drive them wrong. The RR layout makes it easy for massive understeer under throttle. Trail braking is absolutely key for driving one fast at the track. I doubt these reviewers forgot the c8 was mid engine (which in my experience has the best balance of all layouts) so I have to suspect that Chevy built in understeer in case their average corvette car show buyer bought them and didn't have the talent to actually drive them.

Either way the base car with z51 still doesn't compete well against the ZLE I suspect so I'll cancel and consider a higher end model once they are available for far under MSRP....
going a bit off topic here...but do you miss the FT86 tossability compared to the ZLE considering the ZLE is a very heavy car?

That's a huge concern for me with any variant of the C8. It will be no less than 3500 lb (approx. 1600 kg) and that is a lot of weight into corners and I fear it'll dull up the experience a good bit. I mainly got the FT86 for that light nimble feeling.
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Old 10-21-2019, 11:20 PM   #152
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going a bit off topic here...but do you miss the FT86 tossability compared to the ZLE considering the ZLE is a very heavy car?

That's a huge concern for me with any variant of the C8. It will be no less than 3500 lb (approx. 1600 kg) and that is a lot of weight into corners and I fear it'll dull up the experience a good bit. I mainly got the FT86 for that light nimble feeling.
Nope. The alpha platform is amazing. The only thing I miss is the brake feel and brake pedal with the 86 and essex/ap racing brakes. The ZLE is better in every other way. Well... minus consumable cost. I'm not a "camaro guy" but the 6th gen ss 1le and better cars truly are amazing cars for the money. Even with the perfectly good brz sitting around I still take the Camaro to track days without regret. It's a brilliant car.
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Old 10-22-2019, 12:35 PM   #153
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For those interested in getting a very detailed insight on the C8 stingray handling characteristics, I found this Corvette thread

https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums...ck-review.html

It's a pretty big one, but it's super insightful to see how the hardcore FR old school Vette guys go up against this new MR C8.

My personal takeaway message from that thread is that the C8 stingray suffers understeer and to fix this problem Chevy reduced the rear end grip to make this into moderate understeer. But it is not mild understeer or neutral or oversteer in character and therefore unacceptable for me. Moderate understeer or more understeer are a big no no for me in a "sports car" or GT or whatever you wanna call it. Also this problem cannot be fixed with alignment or fatter front tires. The Chevy engineers are struggling with this problem and hope to solve it in future models. For me the C8 Stingray is a pass. I'll wait to see if this issue is solved with the Z06/GS else it's a no for me.

The most interesting part I read on that thread is personal write up by Jason Cammisa on comparing the C8 with the C7. It was taken from another thread but I found it on this thread. I'm quoting it here because it's the most interesting I read:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Originally posted by JasonCammisa View Post
Hey guys. Okay, to answer the first question: I had two sessions on track with the C8, one was 7 laps at he end of a fairly long morning of abuse; the second was 7 laps on a new set of tires. When I hopped in the car the first time, it was in Track + PTM 5. I left it there. Toward the end of the second session, I turned ESC off fully.

As a matter of course, I test cars with their ESC systems both on and off. For cars with advanced track modes (like the Corvette) what I'm looking for is to learn what, if any, bad habits the system is trying to cover up.

Some Ferraris, for example, are amazing in Race Mode; neutral and predictable, and they feel 100% natural. It's only once you switch everything off that you realize the car is inherently very unstable at the rear, and the computer is managing everything. It's that well integrated that you mostly can't feel it working.

Even PTM 5 (on any GM, not just the C8) isn't really like that. It leaves you alone to do whatever you want, but will step in only to save your bacon if you're really about to lose it. In the case of the C8, I didn't feel a single intervention on track until I booted it gracelessly coming out of a hairpin to induce a slide. All it did was cut power (a TC function, not an ESP function.)

The car's behavior in the two modes was the same: easy to manage, incredibly stable, and very fast. My first impression was that it didn't have the oh-my-god levels of lateral grip that the C7 had at launch. The skidpad number (1.03g vs 1.08g) bear that out, so my butt-calibration wasn't off.

Understeer is an oft-misunderstood thing. Cars that don't understeer at all are uncontrollable — think of a shopping cart with omnidirectional casters at the rear. The fastest — and incidentally most rewarding — setup is that of very mild understeer to neutral. Basically, you want both ends of the car to reach their limit at the same time. If anything, maybe the front a hair before the rear.

This is mild understeer. And if the limits of the two axles are very close, you then have the ability to manage them using throttle, brake, or steering inputs. A mid-engie mild-understeerer can be made to go neutral with a small amount of trail-braking, for example.

The reason we (and C/D, and MT, and everyone else who's driven the car) complained about the understeer is for a few reasons. Firstly, it's not mild understeer: it's moderate and then some. This means, as a driver, the repertoire of tricks you have at your disposal to change the car's mid-corner attitude are very limited.

And by the way, when I say "we," I'm not talking about "me at Road & Track." I'm talking about the combined editorial staff. I'm sure you don't need or want a speech about the way magazines work, but when I'm writing a piece about a car as important as the C8, you can be sure I shared that story with my colleagues to ensure that we all agreed on those words. The senior R&T staff saw, and edited, that piece to make sure we all agreed with every word.

I should say that two other experienced drivers on staff didn't feel that the C8's understeer was an issue; they found ways of driving around it. They said they were able to get the car to rotate using big steering inputs, brake stabs, and massive trail-braking.

You've probably all seen my stunt driving — I've done literally thousands of huge slides for the MT videos (and everything else I've done) — but I was NOT going to risk crashing a C8 prototype for the glory of getting the car to rotate. Frankly, the whole point of a mid-engine car is that its low polar moment of inertia eliminates the need for that kind of driving. I got it sideways only under full throttle in 2nd gear on corner exit — and it was progressive and easily controllable. But since those guys found ways to drive around the C8's handling limitation, that line made it into "my" piece in R&T.

Fact is, I can get a Camry to oversteer — and quite easily — using those same moves. It shouldn't be necessary in any sports car. And definitely not in a Corvette.

I mean it when I say that GM does some of the best chassis tuning in the business. They have a secret sauce on the C7 and Alpha-plaform vehicles that somehow gives steering response at the understeer limit. This violates the laws of physics — you can get those cars to go neutral even after they've started understeering, using the steering alone. It's likely a combination of MR dampers, diff, and really good elastokinematics. The cars are unbelievable. They're some of the most rewarding limit-handling cars ever made.

The C8 doesn't do this.

I'm not in the business of getting hard-working people fired, so there will be no names ever given. Put it this way: GM confirmed to me the limit-handling magic trick that the Alpha/C7 cars do isn't possible on the C8 for engineering reasons. But they're working on it. I suspect subsequent versions of the C8 will do this trick... but the Stingray will remain a resolute understeerer for production.

Let's talk about understeer. Does that mean that the C8 is less rewarding on a track for an advanced driver than it could/should be? Yes. Does it mean it should/could be faster around a track? Absolutely.

Does any of that make it a bad car — or a bad Corvette? Of course not. It's one data point!

You guys are clearly enthused about the car, and nobody wants to hear bad things about something they're excited about. I get that — but please, let's keep the conspiracy theories under control. There's no plan to sell additional magazines. I don't want, need, or care to re-spark a career that's not dead. (By the way, I didn't suddenly reappear at R&T; I've been working with those guys since Travis took over 6 months ago. I have a tech column in every issue.)

And as for "perspective:" the thing is fast as (insert profanity here.) Beats every Corvette ever tested to 60 mph; nearly ties the C7 Z06/Z07pkg through the quarter mile. That's a huge achievement, especially given no substantive power bump over the C7 Stingray. I wrote a big tech piece for R&T's Performance Car of the Year issue on that, explaining how it's possible. It's simple physics, and GM's intelligent guys and gals took advantage of the physics benefits of MR traction and a quick-shifting DCT. They did good.

The rest of the car is pretty dang good, too. I seriously cannot express how well it rides — it genuinely redefines what a sports car can ride like. Feels like you're floating on top of the pavement; it's a strange experience. Is that what a Corvette buyer wants? I'll leave that for you to decide. Doesn't matter what I think.

It doesn't matter whether like any part of the C8. I get paid to tell you about the facts, not the opinions. Facts are: the C8 will beat every other Corvette ever made to 60 mph. It rides like a dream. The passenger-side space is compromised because of the buttons. C7 had better steering feel. Brake-by-wire's didn't please everyone. Transmission has some programming issues that I expect will be taken care of before production begins; but its shifts (go see my IG acceleration video for an example) are nowhere near as quick as PDK's, etc. And the car has far more rear-axle grip than front grip in corners, meaning it understeers.

Any other facts you'd like to know? I'm happy to answer the questions. HeII, I'll give you my feelings too, if you want to know them.

Hope this helps!
Jason
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Old 10-22-2019, 04:23 PM   #154
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Quality read, thanks for that.
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