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FR-S / BRZ vs.... Area to discuss the FR-S/BRZ against its competitors [NO STREET RACING]


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Old 08-27-2018, 10:07 PM   #85
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That was indeed my point. It looks exotic, it sounds exotic (carbon!) but numbers say the opposite. If it was much much lighter than a Miata then things would be different, but fact is that it is heavier. Certain engineering decisions were entirely wrong here. Maybe not the carbon cockpit, but certainly something ...

I also don't see any reason with the +30hp on the revised Mazda to pay twice for the 4C.
2,465 is very light; is it not the lightest current production sports car? My 1989 MR2 weighed about that much and that was 30 years ago when cars weren't bogged down by hundreds of pounds in safety equipment and wore 14" wheels/tires. Sure it didn't have a carbon tub; it had tinny sheetmetal that rotted out everywhere instead.

Part of the fun of the 4C is its exclusivity. If you buy a MX-5 you're not making a bad choice by any means, but you'll see cars just like yours every day. I like driving something less common so it appeals to me. Especially lately when I see a poorly modified FR-S/BRZ drive by (of which there are several), it makes me wish I could jump into something else so as not to be associated with those cars.

For those who haven't driven one, you've got to. It's a hoot! I would not want to daily drive it, although some masochists do. Been there done that with enough cars. The engine could really use another thousand revs to feel more racecar-like (my 4.2L V8 RS6 revved to 6,500 rpm for chrissake! Interestingly, both cars have the same 0-60 times) but it gives you a great shove and the sounds are a lot of fun.

Certainly, another car in the segment to consider heavily is the Cayman S. I personally never cared for the styling of them and would just as soon buy an older 911 in the same price bracket before I'd get a Cayman, but they are excellent cars to drive (wheeled a 2015 S PDK around Thompson Motor Speedway for a half dozen laps or so) and more well-rounded.
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Old 08-27-2018, 11:03 PM   #86
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2,465 is very light; is it not the lightest current production sports car?
The Miata is 133 lbs lighter.
The 220hp Elise is 410 lbs lighter.
Neither of them need a carbon tub to get lower than the 4C, both cheaper (the Elise albeit barely) too.

The 4C is an excersise in superatives for the sake of spec sheet bragging. Which is fine seeing the target market Fiat was going for with the car, but the whole isn't more than the sum of its parts, and as an engineer I cannot like it because of the sheer inadequacy of it's design optimization. At its size, cost, and level of spartan-ness it should beat the Elise handily. Instead a small English company shows all the might of the fiat group what they can build for 58grand is significantly faster than the Italians can do for 63k. Hell even the 190 HP Elise gets damn close and is 15 grand cheaper than the Alfa. Yes the Alfa is fast and it's like an assault on your senses on the track, but so is everything else with close to those power/weight and grip/weight ratios.

The 4C sounds amazing on paper, but once you dig deeper you realize that's all it was meant to do. It's let down by more weight than it should be carrying, a crap gearbox, and an engine that's not very well suited for a sports car. FCA has shown plenty of times that since Ferrari left they kinda phone in the engineering. Like how they bragged they desiged the Giulia in 2.5 years. That's not a good thing. That means you rushed it and you'll pay for that later when it proves to be unreliable. Oh wait. That's exactly what happened.
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Old 08-28-2018, 01:43 AM   #87
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The Miata is 133 lbs lighter.
The 220hp Elise is 410 lbs lighter.
Neither of them need a carbon tub to get lower than the 4C, both cheaper (the Elise albeit barely) too.

The 4C is an excersise in superatives for the sake of spec sheet bragging. Which is fine seeing the target market Fiat was going for with the car, but the whole isn't more than the sum of its parts, and as an engineer I cannot like it because of the sheer inadequacy of it's design optimization. At its size, cost, and level of spartan-ness it should beat the Elise handily. Instead a small English company shows all the might of the fiat group what they can build for 58grand is significantly faster than the Italians can do for 63k. Hell even the 190 HP Elise gets damn close and is 15 grand cheaper than the Alfa. Yes the Alfa is fast and it's like an assault on your senses on the track, but so is everything else with close to those power/weight and grip/weight ratios.


The 4C sounds amazing on paper, but once you dig deeper you realize that's all it was meant to do. It's let down by more weight than it should be carrying, a crap gearbox, and an engine that's not very well suited for a sports car. FCA has shown plenty of times that since Ferrari left they kinda phone in the engineering. Like how they bragged they desiged the Giulia in 2.5 years. That's not a good thing. That means you rushed it and you'll pay for that later when it proves to be unreliable. Oh wait. That's exactly what happened.
I did not realize they cut that much weight from the ND MX-5 vs the NC. I stand corrected. I wish they didn't wait til after I bought my BRZ to add 30hp, or I might well be driving an MX-5 by now. Too late!

The Elise hasn't been on sale in the US since 2011, and *if* you can find an S or S 240 they are likely to cost more than a used 4C (no doubt a testament to their desirability, but still out of my budget). I drove the standard Elise and at the time it didn't feel monumentally faster than my 170hp 20v 4AG-swapped MR2. The 2ZZ is such a peaky engine; I didn't really enjoy it (tried a Matrix XR-S with the same engine, same result), though I'm sure it would be adequate at the track if you stay in the powerband. I also really don't fit in an Elise. My line of sight is pretty much parallel with the top of the windshield. So there's that.
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Old 08-28-2018, 06:41 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by Turbowned View Post
2,465 is very light; is it not the lightest current production sports car?
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Originally Posted by Turbowned View Post
I did not realize they cut that much weight from the ND MX-5 vs the NC. I stand corrected.



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Originally Posted by Turbowned View Post
Part of the fun of the 4C is its exclusivity. If you buy a MX-5 you're not making a bad choice by any means, but you'll see cars just like yours every day. I like driving something less common so it appeals to me. Especially lately when I see a poorly modified FR-S/BRZ drive by (of which there are several), it makes me wish I could jump into something else so as not to be associated with those cars.
I agree that the 4C is quite exclusive. I live in Munich Germany and the last 5 years I've seen only one 4C and maybe three or four FR-S/BRZ's. Our cars are not so common too. The MX-5's are much more common.

Why do you feel bad if other people are modifying their car? First of all, I don't think the majority of FS-S/BRZ's are modified. Maybe this forum gives a wrong perception of reality. Additionally, there is the option to install TRD or STI parts and stay within the factory specifications. Of course, there will always be exceptions of the rule and we'll always have some poorly modified or even not poorly modified but certainly outside of the factory specs and quality standards.
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Old 08-28-2018, 10:03 AM   #89
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Regarding weight, 4C chassis is heavier than the Miata and Elise, but also a good bit stiffer.

There are people who like it, and people who don't. People who get it, people who value other things. It's all good - most of this 4C debate is subjective and headed WAY off topic.
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Old 08-28-2018, 11:00 AM   #90
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Regarding weight, 4C chassis is heavier than the Miata and Elise, but also a good bit stiffer.
Would you mind posting the torsional rigidity numbers for the ND/Elise/4C? I can't find the data.
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Old 08-28-2018, 11:34 AM   #91
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Would you mind posting the torsional rigidity numbers for the ND/Elise/4C? I can't find the data.
Sure:

Lotus Elise ranges from 10k-11k nm/degree
Miata NC: 8800 nm/dgree
Miata NA & NB: 6000 nm/degree
Alfa 4C: 14,500 nm/degree

And you know what, I confused NC with the latest model (ND). Couldn't find the rigidity numbers on that either, apologize for that. Probably better than 8800, but kind of doubt they've reached the 4C's numbers (I could be wrong though). From various reading the NC was a big jump in rigidity for the Miatas, the ND less so (over the NC), but that's all anecdotal and take my word with a grain of salt
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Old 08-28-2018, 11:47 AM   #92
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What is the torsional rigidity of the twin? I cant find a number.
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Old 08-28-2018, 12:12 PM   #93
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Sure:

Lotus Elise ranges from 10k-11k nm/degree
Miata NC: 8800 nm/dgree
Miata NA & NB: 6000 nm/degree
Alfa 4C: 14,500 nm/degree

And you know what, I confused NC with the latest model (ND). Couldn't find the rigidity numbers on that either, apologize for that. Probably better than 8800, but kind of doubt they've reached the 4C's numbers (I could be wrong though). From various reading the NC was a big jump in rigidity for the Miatas, the ND less so (over the NC), but that's all anecdotal and take my word with a grain of salt
Awesome thank you for this. For some reason I find rigidity data is sometimes hard to find
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Old 08-28-2018, 12:33 PM   #94
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What is the torsional rigidity of the twin? I cant find a number.


22000 NM/degree from what I can find.
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Old 08-28-2018, 12:52 PM   #95
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22000 NM/degree from what I can find.
That seems usually high when compared to the other cars?
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Old 08-28-2018, 01:40 PM   #96
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Coupe #'s are a lot higher, those numbers are all for the open top versions
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Old 08-28-2018, 01:49 PM   #97
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That seems usually high when compared to the other cars?


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Coupe #'s are a lot higher, those numbers are all for the open top versions


Yup, coupes are inherently much stiffer.

The RX8 is 30000nm/degree, and that uses the same platform as the NC Miata, which didn't even hit 10000nm/degree
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Old 08-28-2018, 02:27 PM   #98
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Coupe #'s are a lot higher, those numbers are all for the open top versions
Interesting, I wonder how stiff the 4C coupe is. Probably stiffer than 30,000 if that's what the RX8 is at.
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