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Old 06-29-2015, 12:57 AM   #99
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120hp/liter because emissions and mileage requirements back then were much less stringent than now. The same motor couldn't be produced today. Too dirty.
Uh, yes it can. Porsche has 125hp/L new engines. The standard 3.4L can probably crank out 400hp unrestricted (it's definitely tuned to produce less than maximum power).

Honda just doesn't want to make a high revver anymore. To be fair, these days it seems like no one really cares anyways.
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Old 06-29-2015, 01:28 AM   #100
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Uh, yes it can. Porsche has 125hp/L new engines. The standard 3.4L can probably crank out 400hp unrestricted (it's definitely tuned to produce less than maximum power).

Honda just doesn't want to make a high revver anymore. To be fair, these days it seems like no one really cares anyways.
Oh I see, because Porsche can produce clean 125hp/L in their $100k - $200k supercars, Honda can too in it's pedestrian $40k S2k replacement. Umm, no. There's a reason why exotic engines go in exotic cars. Price.
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Old 06-29-2015, 01:34 AM   #101
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Oh I see, because Porsche can produce clean 125hp/L in their $100k - $200k supercars, Honda can too in it's pedestrian $40k S2k replacement. Umm, no. There's a reason why exotic engines go in exotic cars. Price.
Except the Porsche engine is not that exotic. Their run of the mill base Cayman engine is probably capable of 300hp uncorked. The standard 3.8 hits 115hp/L with the X51 package, and it's the exact same engine with a bigger bore more or less.

The GT3 engine is based on the same engine with a few upgrades.

The Porsche engines are nothing special btw, steel rods and valves, single direct injector (we got 2 in our cars) and dual lift profile cams (which Honda has standard). The K24 earth dreams is just as good on the spec sheet, it is just economy focused.

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Old 06-29-2015, 01:40 AM   #102
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Except the Porsche engine is not that exotic. Their run of the mill base Cayman engine is probably capable of 300hp uncorked. The standard 3.8 hits 115hp/L with the X51 package, and it's the exact same engine with a bigger bore more or less.

The GT3 engine is based on the same engine with a few upgrades.

The Porsche engines are nothing special btw, steel rods and valves, single direct injector (we got 2 in our cars) and dual lift profile cams (which Honda has standard). The K24 earth dreams is just as good on the spec sheet, it is just economy focused.

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Ok and the Cayman is still double the price of an S2K. Give me an example of a modern HONDA engine producing emissions clean 125hp/L in a car under $40k and your example holds. Until then, sorry.
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Old 06-29-2015, 01:47 AM   #103
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Ok and the Cayman is still double the price of an S2K. Give me an example of a modern HONDA engine producing emissions clean 125hp/L in a car under $40k and your example holds. Until then, sorry.
How is a cayman double the price of a new s2k? It's 52k msrp lol.

It also has much nicer interior and 2 more cylinders.
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Old 06-29-2015, 02:42 AM   #104
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How is a cayman double the price of a new s2k? It's 52k msrp lol.

It also has much nicer interior and 2 more cylinders.
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The $52k Cayman has a 2.7L engine and outputs 275bhp. How is that 125bhp/L?

From there, Cayman S ($64k), GTS ($75k) and GT4 ($84k) get bigger engines, to go with their bigger prices but none of them put out more than 101 bhp/L. Strangely, that's roughly what our modest 86s do. None of them come close to 125 bhp/L.

Cherry picking facts only reflects a weak argument.

Cayman's are not exotics, they don't have exotic car engine output. Your example of a Cayman proves my point more than yours.

With all that rigamarole, none of them are Hondas. Let it go.
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Old 06-29-2015, 02:47 AM   #105
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Cayman's are not exotics, they don't have exotic car engine output. Your example of a Cayman proves my point more than yours.
Anyone who knows a thing or two about Porsches knows that all the engines are nearly identical, they only vary in displacement, maybe the cams for X51 upgrade, and the tune.

The 3.8L engine makes 430hp in its highest power "variant", which is really just the same variant as all the other flat 6s, except it's ECU allows it to produce that much power.

The 2.7L in the Cayman has the same hardware in the heads as the 3.8L, and the 3.4 for that matter. With a variable intake manifold (which is cheap by the way, Toyota Camrys have 3 stage variable intakes) it should make around 115hp/L as well, assuming the ECU isn't programmed to limit power.

Every Porsche engine right now has at least 115hp/L capable heads and bottom end, just not the ECU and sometimes an intake. This is with <8000rpm rev limiters.
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Old 06-29-2015, 03:20 AM   #106
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Anyone who knows a thing or two about Porsches knows that all the engines are nearly identical, they only vary in displacement, maybe the cams for X51 upgrade, and the tune.

The 3.8L engine makes 430hp in its highest power "variant", which is really just the same variant as all the other flat 6s, except it's ECU allows it to produce that much power.

The 2.7L in the Cayman has the same hardware in the heads as the 3.8L, and the 3.4 for that matter. With a variable intake manifold (which is cheap by the way, Toyota Camrys have 3 stage variable intakes) it should make around 115hp/L as well, assuming the ECU isn't programmed to limit power.

Every Porsche engine right now has at least 115hp/L capable heads and bottom end, just not the ECU and sometimes an intake. This is with <8000rpm rev limiters.
1. A person would have to accept all the above assumptions to agree to your point. Not very convincing. Not likely to happen.

2. You're thinking like someone who mods cars and not like an OEM. More power = dirtier emissions, greater tarrifs, and most importantly, greater cost. Not only because of the above mention considerations, but also due to changes needed to supporting vehicle components to make a more powerful car reliable enough to put a warranty on it.

3. 110hp/L isn't 120hp/L or 125hp/L. Where's your real world example?

4. None of these are Hondas.

5. It's not just about Honda not desiring to make a high revving car. R&D, testing, and product mix considerations all come into play.
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Old 06-29-2015, 03:22 AM   #107
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1. A person would have to accept all the above assumptions to agree to your point. Not very convincing. Not likely to happen.

2. You're thinking like someone who mods cars and not like an OEM. More power = dirtier emissions, greater tarrifs, and most importantly, greater cost. Not only because of the above mention considerations, but also due to changes needed to supporting vehicle components to make a more powerful car reliable enough to put a warranty on it.
1. Go read Rennlist.

2. Wait, how is an X51 911S not OEM?

3. 430/3.8=113, okay that's not 120, but again, the Porsche has much less RPM to work with and this number is not as hard to increase as you think. Emissions is not a concern at 8000rpm, the OEM can do whatever they want if the valvetrain and head can provide stable combustion at low speed.

4. Honda knows how to make a good engine, probably better than Porsche does. The Earthdreams K24 is very powerful considering how low its rev limit is, and Honda knows how to make high revving engines too.

5. I agree that there's R&D and stuff, but isn't the choice to not invest in that because Honda doesn't desire to make a powerful NA engine? By definition..

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Old 06-29-2015, 03:45 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by serialk11r View Post
1. Go read Rennlist.

2. Wait, how is an X51 911S not OEM?

3. 430/3.8=113, okay that's not 120, but again, the Porsche has much less RPM to work with and this number is not as hard to increase as you think. Emissions is not a concern at 8000rpm, the OEM can do whatever they want if the valvetrain and head can provide stable combustion at low speed.

4. Honda knows how to make a good engine, probably better than Porsche does. The Earthdreams K24 is very powerful considering how low its rev limit is, and Honda knows how to make high revving engines too.

5. I agree that there's R&D and stuff, but isn't the choice to not invest in that because Honda doesn't desire to make a powerful NA engine? By definition..
No disrespect, but you sound like you're trying (hard) to confirm your own bias.

Porsche ALMOST fielding a 120bhp/L production engine at a much higher price point isn't at all evidence that Honda can produce a more powerful engine (in terms of bhp/L) at a much lower price point. This is pretty straightforward stuff.
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Old 06-29-2015, 04:03 AM   #109
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No disrespect, but you sound like you're trying (hard) to confirm your own bias.

Porsche ALMOST fielding a 120bhp/L production engine at a much higher price point isn't at all evidence that Honda can produce a more powerful engine (in terms of bhp/L) at a much lower price point. This is pretty straightforward stuff.
Perhaps I am biased.

You have to remember that Porsche's higher price tags include the brand markup (substantial, considering Porsche has some of the highest profits in the industry), many more expensive components unrelated to the drivetrain, much higher end interior, etc.

Back in 2000, the F20C was, cylinder for cylinder, much better than just about anything else out there, Ferrari, Porsche, or Toyota. Let's be honest here, 40k for a 2 seater sports car leaves quite a large budget for the engine. The FA20 is not a bad engine and Subaru managed to stuff that into a 25k car.

You could take your argument and apply it to Toyota in 1999. They make low cost stuff, the 3S-GE and 4A-GE wouldn't pass emissions. Then in 2000, the 2ZZ-GE appears with the first variable lift system in a Toyota. The thing is, just because a Ferrari costs 10x doesn't mean its engine costs 10x as much to design and build at the same scale, and at this point just about every manufacturer is very familiar with direct injection, valve timing, and multiple lift profiles.

If you look at the 911 GT3 engine, the only things that really stand out are the forged pistons (which the F20C had, and these are cheap anyways) and titanium rods (these are expensive, but the F20C didn't use them and did fine).

It basically comes down to, can Honda design a head that allows the tumble flow that a direct injection system needs to work efficiently at low speed, with very high flow capabilities at high valve lift. If you look at Honda's current lineup, you might conclude the answer is no because there are no high revving Honda engines in production. I like to look at Honda's venerable history of engines and say that I think they can definitely do it if they wanted to.
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Old 07-14-2015, 05:25 PM   #110
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Having now owned a BRZ (built up from stock to boosted+suspension etc), AP1 S2000 and a couple of Miatas, one boosted one not, I am totally in love with the S2000. My S2000 has much better steering weight any feel, it feels like it changes directions better than both the Miatas I have owned and the BRZ even with suspension work, and that constant pull right up to 9000rpm is intoxicating. I can't wait to get the S2000 onto the track and compare my lap times.
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Old 07-14-2015, 05:59 PM   #111
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Argue with him if you like, but serialk11r is mostly correct.

Porsche intentionally restricts power output of the larger engines in the Boxster and Cayman. Porsche blames their lower power output on packaging constraints for the intake and exhaust, but since when does a mid engine design have more packaging constraints than a rear engine design?

The GT series cars are really the only Porsche vehicles with fancy engine components, except for the GT4 which has the same engine as the 911 S (except it makes less hp....gee how convenient).

Oh and btw the base Cayman has had a 2.9 liter engine (275 hp) since 2009, not 2.7.


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Old 07-14-2015, 06:18 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by DAEMANO View Post
Oh I see, because Porsche can produce clean 125hp/L in their $100k - $200k supercars, Honda can too in it's pedestrian $40k S2k replacement. Umm, no. There's a reason why exotic engines go in exotic cars. Price.
Honda's 30k S2k made 125ps/L in the same year that Ferrari finally matched the B18's 111hp/L with the 360 Modena (MSRP 172k). Meanwhile, Porsche was still stuck at 100ps/L with their 996.1 GT3 (85k?).

Considering Ford can make make 100hp/L nowadays, something tells me that if Honda tried, they can.
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