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Forced Induction Turbo, Supercharger, Methanol, Nitrous


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Old 08-30-2013, 12:30 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dezoris View Post

I just watched evo4g63s tune and drama with Tony tuning on 91 then switching to e85.
The car was not happy on 91 just was not stable.
This is so true I have been a 4g63 owner for years if you have 93-94 octane in your area ( North east and Canada ) then you can crank up the boost no problemo.

BTW :
I was on the fence with what power added I was going to go with but, thanks to your corny videos i'm going with the same supercharger setup you have.
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Old 08-30-2013, 01:11 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by gppfrs View Post
This is so true I have been a 4g63 owner for years if you have 93-94 octane in your area ( North east and Canada ) then you can crank up the boost no problemo.

BTW :
I was on the fence with what power added I was going to go with but, thanks to your corny videos i'm going with the same supercharger setup you have.
I believe he was referring to my screen name. Although I am a 4g63 guy S well 👍
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Old 08-30-2013, 01:13 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by regal View Post
Wow I won't argue with you but you're basically saying the twin screw alternative is not even road worthy. Guess I'll hold off on FI for a while longer. Hope you keep your car and keep us posted with long term stuff.

I am a bit surprised you consider the stock suspension perfect, I find the front spring rates a tad too low, it translates into a slight uneasiness taking turns thru hills not a big deal but its there. Have you taken a trip thru rural southern Illinois yet?

Thanks again.
The twin screw Innovate is road worthy if you are running 92-93 or E85.
On 91, the tuning has to be so aggressively de-tuned to run smoothly and at that point you are talking about 180HP to the wheels if you do a couple of hard runs on the street. It heat soaks fast and timing gets pulled.

92-93 is much better but still same issue, after a few hard runs performance does not stay consistent in the heat. E85 is much better and the best option, but has the trade offs of wrecking MPG.

On the track, forget it. You are basically forced into E85 for for cooling efficiency. Then you need to consider aggressive oil and water cooling solutions like what Robi runs, and then meth injection.

Innovate cannot nor can the support shops answer why the kit was not sold with intercooler. It's a secret and there is some contractual BS along with it. What it is a monster red flag.

I have talked to 3 different shops and tuners now. They all agree, this kit needs an intercooler. You can **** around with meth, E85, etc to mask it but at the end of the day out of the box not very versatile.

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Originally Posted by ThisIsChrisKim View Post
After looking at your fluids analyses, you're feeling good about running this setup for a long time or are you a little uneasy about the longevity? I know there's been a lot of speculation about how well this transmission will hold up under the added torque of FI. What are your thoughts?
Motor at this level I am confident now. It's strong as long as you keep it conservative. Clutch is good, and most everything else.

The trans maybe the weak link, we just don't know yet. I will continue to send another sample after 10k miles to follow up.

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Originally Posted by jamesm View Post

typically i'd never recommend a centrifugal s/c for any application, i view them as an unnecessary compromise, but in this case it's a no-brainer. if you absolutely must go s/c the vortech is the way to go. the innovate kit just doesn't offer much in terms of power out of the box or breathing room, and it seems rushed to market, missing key pieces that need to be there (ic and iat).

if you drive an innovate car, there's a real good chance someone with an n/a tune on e85 could outrun you in a straight line. you won't have that in a vortech car. isn't that the whole point of fi?

190-220whp doesn't make for a very fast 86.
The Vortech kit works with little fuss. Will it be the best kit forever, not likely we just don't know. There are trade offs, frequent oil changes, parasitic loss etc. But it's the most proven kit thus far.

The Innovate on 91 has and will be slower than a well tuned NA car. We have already seen it. Maybe not on the first run, but on the 2nd and 3rd etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueDubbinTDI View Post
I don't mean to thread jack (this is an EXCELLENT insight into SCing and is greatly appreciated btw) but has anyone made such an in-depth review on a particular turbo setup?
Have not seen it yet, there are 3 kits solid kits out there with solid results and potential.

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Originally Posted by regal View Post
I agree except the last sentence , Dezoris's setup is 220hp. To me this is plenty for the street, a bit faster than a stock S2k.

I also have always considered a centr. supercharger a compromise as OEM's never use them, but sounds like vortech has the old issues ironed out.
You will always have this battle of people who always want more power. At 220-240 you are at the sweet spot. You don't have to worry about fuel system upgrades, clutch and drive train issues.

After 250 on all FI you need pump, injectors and possible clutch upgrades to be safe. The people who always cry about wanting more power clearly never spent too much time in the garage fixing things.

Power is nothing without reliability unless you like fixing things and have unlimited budget.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gppfrs View Post
This is so true I have been a 4g63 owner for years if you have 93-94 octane in your area ( North east and Canada ) then you can crank up the boost no problemo.

BTW :
I was on the fence with what power added I was going to go with but, thanks to your corny videos i'm going with the same supercharger setup you have.
Cool as long as you approach it from a realistic standpoint you won't have too many surprises.


Good luck
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Old 08-30-2013, 01:47 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by Dezoris View Post
The twin screw Innovate is road worthy if you are running 92-93 or E85.
On 91, the tuning has to be so aggressively de-tuned to run smoothly and at that point you are talking about 180HP to the wheels if you do a couple of hard runs on the street. It heat soaks fast and timing gets pulled.
Is this based on real data you've found from other members w/ the Innovate, or is this just assumption?

From what I've found it also depends heavily on how good of a tuner you have.
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Old 08-30-2013, 01:56 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by Sonolin View Post
Is this based on real data you've found from other members w/ the Innovate, or is this just assumption?

From what I've found it also depends heavily on how good of a tuner you have.

I just spend over two hours in a dyno room talking to Toni and watching tuning on Innovate kits. I have also talked to Innovate directly, and Jason from Nameless, and several other vendors and owners of the kit.

There will be a video from the tuning day coming out with interviews sometime next week.

There are not a lot of tuners who have experience with it.
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Old 08-30-2013, 02:08 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by gppfrs View Post
This is so true I have been a 4g63 owner for years if you have 93-94 octane in your area ( North east and Canada ) then you can crank up the boost no problemo.

BTW :
I was on the fence with what power added I was going to go with but, thanks to your corny videos i'm going with the same supercharger setup you have.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonolin View Post
Is this based on real data you've found from other members w/ the Innovate, or is this just assumption?

From what I've found it also depends heavily on how good of a tuner you have.
Bottom line here is to be safe without an IC than E85 is a must. The car can run on 91 piss fuel but at the end of the day is it really worth it? De tuning the car to drive safely for what is to be something in a bump of power is not my cup of tea. After seeing on a dyno and dealing with awful fuel and heat I stand behind having an IC on 91pump. If not than get some damn corn and an oil cooler. I own this kit personally and I will probably never again run 91 in my car for the remaining life of it. I don't like seeing the factory ecu pull so much timing or knowing that the car will knock after a few pulls WOT. This is not a tuning issue, it's an issue with heat.
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Old 08-30-2013, 02:12 PM   #49
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Watched this video when I woke up this morning. Very amazing video, well done, thank you very much for putting in the time and effort for the community!!!
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Old 08-30-2013, 02:22 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dezoris View Post


You will always have this battle of people who always want more power. At 220-240 you are at the sweet spot. You don't have to worry about fuel system upgrades, clutch and drive train issues.

After 250 on all FI you need pump, injectors and possible clutch upgrades to be safe. The people who always cry about wanting more power clearly never spent too much time in the garage fixing things.

Power is nothing without reliability unless you like fixing things and have unlimited budget.



Cool as long as you approach it from a realistic standpoint you won't have too many surprises.


Good luck
Very smart level headed mods, we need more of this strategy on this forum.

For reliability, I think you need to get rid of the factory catted exhaust manifold. You are probably pushing those manifold cats to their limit and when they fracture it could be ugly.

Really hope you do another video. Youtube has a few videos of the '86 traveling thru scenic Europe and Mt. Fuji Japan. Yours skills with the camera are so good its a shame they all have that urban backdrop. An American version with a trip thru southern IL or Kentucky would be a great finale showing the car in its natural habitat.
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Old 08-30-2013, 02:32 PM   #51
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Minor miss on the tyre weight, you may find that you really didn't drop any weight on the wheels setup.

As for the twinscrew SC setup, I honestly have no idea why innovate went without, rushing too market definitely doesn't seem to be the reason. The rest of the world has had the IC setup for the last few months already.
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Old 08-30-2013, 02:34 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by evo4g63 View Post
Bottom line here is to be safe without an IC than E85 is a must. The car can run on 91 piss fuel but at the end of the day is it really worth it? De tuning the car to drive safely for what is to be something in a bump of power is not my cup of tea. After seeing on a dyno and dealing with awful fuel and heat I stand behind having an IC on 91pump. If not than get some damn corn and an oil cooler. I own this kit personally and I will probably never again run 91 in my car for the remaining life of it. I don't like seeing the factory ecu pull so much timing or knowing that the car will knock after a few pulls WOT. This is not a tuning issue, it's an issue with heat.
And @regal I was in evo4g63s Innovate car, I listened to his experience. His final tune on E85 is really impressive. In fact if I drove my car on 93oct side by side his car felt better on the street. In fact I could buy the kit with inter-cooling and more advanced IAT or Boost temps monitoring like what Nameless is working on I would recommend it over the Vortech.

But that's 6 months out at least.
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Old 08-30-2013, 02:40 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by s2d4 View Post
Minor miss on the tyre weight, you may find that you really didn't drop any weight on the wheels setup.
We weighed wheels and tires before and after.
Tires were 24lbs a piece.

We weighed and had discount tire weight before and after.

Better?
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Old 08-30-2013, 02:48 PM   #54
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We weighed wheels and tires before and after.
Tires were 24lbs a piece.

We weighed and had discount tire weight before and after.

Better?
Yeah, stock is about 41lbs and you've increased the diameter by ~20m, too close to count so probably wouldn't count as weight savings.
Anyways, almost a non-issue in the grand scheme of things in terms of searching for more grip.
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Old 08-30-2013, 02:49 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by regal View Post
Very smart level headed mods, we need more of this strategy on this forum.

For reliability, I think you need to get rid of the factory catted exhaust manifold. You are probably pushing those manifold cats to their limit and when they fracture it could be ugly.

Really hope you do another video. Youtube has a few videos of the '86 traveling thru scenic Europe and Mt. Fuji Japan. Yours skills with the camera are so good its a shame they all have that urban backdrop. An American version with a trip thru southern IL or Kentucky would be a great finale showing the car in its natural habitat.

Thanks man, have been sitting on sidelines with headers for a while, there are some good ones finally coming out, for now going to let others do the testing for me.

We are going down south to NC in September to interview Ohlins Product Manager and do tour and Essex/AP racing. So we should have some nice footage from the Appalachians and Dragon Area.
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Old 08-30-2013, 02:53 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by s2d4 View Post
Yeah, stock is about 41lbs and you've increased the diameter by ~20m, too close to count so probably wouldn't count as weight savings.
Anyways, almost a non-issue in the grand scheme of things in terms of searching for more grip.
Pretty much grip is king!

Final weight of stock wheel and RS3 Tire: 43.5lbs. (Per Wheel)
Final weight of RPF1 wheel and RS3 Tire: 39.5lbs (Per Wheel)

Total of 16lbs. Is that not a weight savings, did I somehow not add or account for something?
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