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View Poll Results: How many 86 owners are planning on getting the Supra?
I'm definitely getting one 26 13.61%
I might get one if they offer a MT 73 38.22%
No, not me. 92 48.17%
Voters: 191. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 06-08-2019, 02:25 AM   #1247
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Originally Posted by nikitopo View Post
Motorcycles have an entirely different frontal area! And how motorcycles came into the discussion? My god ..

The 2.0T Cayman's power has been underrated from the factory in a similar fashion like the Supra appearing in the Car&Driver's dyno video. Same about the 2.5T. Anyway if you want believe it , if you don't want fine for me. Fact is that people that had a chance to really drive it were impressed by the engine power. Golf R is back on power levels. About Honda I said that it is close, but it looks that you just want to argue for the argue ...
Sorry man. Sometimes it is hard to perceive the intellectual faculties of a person online. If you are struggling to understand analogies or examples then I can try to use smaller words.

I'm quoting you:

Quote:
I mentioned top speed which is related mainly with engine's power.
This statement is entirely incorrect. Oh sorry, I forgot--small words. Those words put next to each other is a big boo boo silly head. Many different things with engines and tires with less horsepower can have a faster top speed. We see these things when we look at examples at the extremes, which is just a big bad big word (I know sorry again) for things that have really big stufff and really small stuff like big trucks with big torque and small bikes with small horsepower.

------

Again, have you seen the dynos from any other performance cars out there with a 2.0T or 2.5T, or is the Cayman your only example? If you haven't then check out the Focus RS, Golf R, Civic Type R, STI, Evos, Lexus, Jaguar, anything. Have you seen how much power can be had from a tune or basic bolt ons and upping the boost? I'm with @abraxis, any motor can be underrated from the factory and get the boost turned up. Here is a 2015 WRX [$25k car (not the STI)] with a FA20DIT making 344wtq and 313whp with a tune and a few bolt ons:

https://www.cobbtuning.com/2015_wrx_tuning_results/

Here is a 2007 Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution IX MR FQ-360, which came from the factory with 366hp and 363tq from a 2.0T in, again, 2007, from again, Mitsubishi. I like this line: "By comparison, the Porsche 911 Carrera 4S, which costs almost twice as much, takes 0.9 seconds longer to reach 60mph from rest."

https://www.topspeed.com/cars/mitsub...0-ar18927.html

Can you actually give any evidence for this statement?

Quote:
Porsche is currently WAY FAR from competition in this area.
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Old 06-08-2019, 02:52 AM   #1248
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Originally Posted by nikitopo View Post
The suspension of the Supra is softer comparing to the one of the Z4. This is a bit weird. Someone would expect the suspension of the convertible to be more comfortable and the suspension of the coupe to be more hardcore and to the limit. This is certainly something that will be addressed by the tuners! They are already working on it.
A Supra chassis that is stiffer than the Lexus LFA with a stiff suspension would not only be miserable to live with, but would probably perform poorly except on perfectly flat pavement or a track, and even that is questionable. This goes the same for the Z4, even being pretty stiff for a convertible; putting soft suspension on a chassis that is already has flex because it is a convertible is not ideal if performance is at all being considered.

Take an example from another type of motorsports--Motogp (I know. Motorcycles again, but try to follow because the same principles apply). They learned that they couldn't just keep making the chassis stiffer because in a lean, where the vertical suspension was negated, it was necessary to have chassis flex. Similarly, if the Supra had stiff suspension and a stiff chassis then the car would be bouncing down the road, so something had to give. In their case, a stiffer chassis with softer, adjustable suspension is the better setup than the Z4's softer chassis and stiffer suspension, yet the Z4's hands were tied in this situation.

https://www.cycleworld.com/2015/10/1...g-races#page-2
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Old 06-08-2019, 05:56 AM   #1249
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Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0 View Post
Again, have you seen the dynos from any other performance cars out there with a 2.0T or 2.5T, or is the Cayman your only example? If you haven't then check out the Focus RS, Golf R, Civic Type R, STI, Evos, Lexus, Jaguar, anything. Have you seen how much power can be had from a tune or basic bolt ons and upping the boost? I'm with @abraxis, any motor can be underrated from the factory and get the boost turned up. Here is a 2015 WRX [$25k car (not the STI)] with a FA20DIT making 344wtq and 313whp with a tune and a few bolt ons:
...
Can you actually give any evidence for this statement?
We were talking on a specific context which is comparing Supra, M2, Cayman. Not about motorcycles, not about non factory spec cars, not about what tuners can do, not about cars dating back to 2007 with different regulations and so on. It is useless trying to take single propositions out of the general context and misquote people. If you want to play, then play a fair game within the rules!
Lol. It is that simple. If you can mention some other interesting modern 2.0lt 4 cylinder factory spec engine apart from Honda (we said this one is nice) please do! Maybe I am missing some interesting engine . And all this discussion is within the topic. BMW & Toyota were saying they were targeting to make a competitor of the Porsche Boxster/Cayman.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0 View Post
A Supra chassis that is stiffer than the Lexus LFA with a stiff suspension would not only be miserable to live with, but would probably perform poorly except on perfectly flat pavement or a track, and even that is questionable. This goes the same for the Z4, even being pretty stiff for a convertible; putting soft suspension on a chassis that is already has flex because it is a convertible is not ideal if performance is at all being considered.
Maybe you didn't understand my statement. The Z4 has an overall stiffer setup (chassis+suspension). This is what journalists were saying, unless they were wrong. Supra has an overall softer setup which is better for road. However, again it is weird. Someone would expect the coupe car with the more aggressive lines and design to be more focused for the track and not the other way around. So, I would expect Z4 to have the softer setup (more road oriented) and Supra the stiffer setup (more track oriented). Anyway, this is my personal perception. It doesn't mean that everyone should think like me and it looks that factories (BMW & Toyota) had other priorities. There were complains that the previous Z4 was too soft and maybe they changed it now.
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Old 06-08-2019, 07:04 PM   #1250
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Let's recap:

Quote:
Originally Posted by nikitopo View Post
The new Cayman is an amazing car and pretty much unbelievable to be in same performance category with Supra and M2 which are 6 cylinder engines with turbo. There were some tests recently here in autobahn and it could easily top 275 km/h (170 mph). It could accelerate even more, but not so easy with the traffic. Just incredible result from such a small 2,0 liter engine.
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Originally Posted by gymratter View Post
^cuz it weights less, not much too it lol
Quote:
Originally Posted by nikitopo View Post
Lol. No, you don't get it. Weight helps only in acceleration and especially in low gears. I mentioned top speed which is related mainly with engine's power. None of these cars has a terrible Cd value, so top speed is mainly because of power. I didn't say that Supra doesn't have a powerful engine, but comparing a 4 cylinder with a 6 cylinder engine is a night to day difference. Do you know how much power the 2.0 lt engine in Z4 makes? Porsche is currently WAY FAR from competition in this area.

And by the way... Subaru would be dreaming to have Porsche's engine. They designed the FA20DIT engine some years ago, but they couldn't achieve this result. Only with the EJ20 engines they make it, but they are an outdated design and cannot be sold outside domestic market. Probably Honda is close in engine technology, but not with a boxer design.
Then I mention how all of that was false. The Porsche hits a faster top speed because of gearing and weight because weight matters. It may be hard to understand how weight could matter with just a few hundred pounds difference, so we could look at motorbikes or lighter cars like a Lotus to better illustrate the effects of power to weight ratio.

And it isn't a night and day difference when those cars compete in relative price markets, and then you compare a Porsche to an engine in a $25k car...??? Just because they don't make it doesn't mean they can't. They probably don't because it might cost more than $25k.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nikitopo View Post
We were talking on a specific context which is comparing Supra, M2, Cayman. Not about motorcycles, not about non factory spec cars, not about what tuners can do, not about cars dating back to 2007 with different regulations and so on. It is useless trying to take single propositions out of the general context and misquote people. If you want to play, then play a fair game within the rules!
Lol. It is that simple. If you can mention some other interesting modern 2.0lt 4 cylinder factory spec engine apart from Honda (we said this one is nice) please do! Maybe I am missing some interesting engine . And all this discussion is within the topic. BMW & Toyota were saying they were targeting to make a competitor of the Porsche Boxster/Cayman.
I still haven't heard why the Porsche 2.0T or 2.5T is interesting. Maybe if you define a few metrics of what you believe is interesting about the Porsche motor then I will find some examples that satisfy those same metrics.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nikitopo View Post
Maybe you didn't understand my statement. The Z4 has an overall stiffer setup (chassis+suspension). This is what journalists were saying, unless they were wrong. Supra has an overall softer setup which is better for road. However, again it is weird. Someone would expect the coupe car with the more aggressive lines and design to be more focused for the track and not the other way around. So, I would expect Z4 to have the softer setup (more road oriented) and Supra the stiffer setup (more track oriented). Anyway, this is my personal perception. It doesn't mean that everyone should think like me and it looks that factories (BMW & Toyota) had other priorities. There were complains that the previous Z4 was too soft and maybe they changed it now.
They improved the torsional stiffness of the Z4 a lot as you said because of complaints, claiming that it is now actually stiffer than any open top roadster ever, and even stiffer than the M2 or M3 coupe or something. Maybe they went with the old formula of stiffer suspension with a soft chassis, but forgot the car was stiffer (unlikely), or they were just chasing Nurburgring times knowing their car was competing with and co-developed with the Supra (Z4 was faster than the M2 Competition).

Regardless, I believe the Supra has a stiffer chassis than the Z4, so it can afford a softer suspension (who knows if the adaptive suspension was modified in all these reviews to its softest or stiffest setting), which can give a false feeling that the total package is softer (chassis + suspension, like you said); maybe it absorbs bumps better than the Z4 and that was the difference, but overall still has a stiffer package (chassis + suspension). It is hard to know empirically from reviews.
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Old 06-09-2019, 04:56 AM   #1251
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"Be glad the Supra exists at all"

I found this article interesting.
https://www.pistonheads.com/regulars...footnote/40329
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Old 06-10-2019, 12:18 PM   #1252
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Top Gear Tests Z4 against Supra

https://www.supramkv.com/threads/top...st-supra.1856/

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Old 06-15-2019, 03:02 PM   #1253
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Old 06-15-2019, 04:05 PM   #1254
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^ Can't watch that guys videos. He comes across as some twit with parents who have money and he uses their money to buy cars and make videos about it.
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Old 06-17-2019, 10:45 AM   #1255
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Originally Posted by Captain Snooze View Post
I'm glad it exists. But I'm sad it doesn't have 3 pedals; something that probably means I'll never be interested in owning it (or any sports car with 2 pedals).

As to top speed discussion, I think it's stupid for any sports cars to be artificially limited.
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Old 06-20-2019, 07:00 PM   #1256
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https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a2...-claim-tested/
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Old 06-20-2019, 08:09 PM   #1257
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I was wondering how it would be lowering w/o a boxer engine.
LFA and a few others are pretty low too.



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Old 06-20-2019, 08:25 PM   #1258
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Old 06-20-2019, 10:27 PM   #1259
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Quote:
Originally Posted by abraxis View Post
The COG on the 86 seems to match to the center of the crank and is 18.1''. With the 86 we got a number. It is possible that Toyota didn't release a number because they lied or because it was marketing to fib. Could there be a track edition in the future that is dropped with more carbon fiber used? Could the Supra be capable of a lower COG because there is more potential to be lowered without scraping? Could the seat height be lower, so when there is a driver the COG is less altered compared to the 86? Even if all of these things were possible it seems unlikely that Toyota would be fibbing or only considering a special track edition. This will be interesting to follow.

https://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2131

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Old 06-21-2019, 01:05 AM   #1260
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Could the Supra be capable of a lower COG because there is more potential to be lowered without scraping?
The interesting thing is that Tada is on record saying the Supra is already the lowest it can go without scraping for normal daily use. In fact, if you lower it anymore, certain sensors might not keep working accurately. But maybe he was just foreshadowing the #7 Le Mans car?
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