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Old 07-25-2018, 09:04 PM   #323
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Originally Posted by Tcoat View Post
If the marketing people really thought more hp would sell a lot more cars, you'd have more compromise. If they could sell the car for a lot more profit, you'd have more compromise. With the MX5, we'll see if more hp sells a lot more cars. I doubt it will in the longer term even with a very short term bump. They have to pay for any major redesign so you need either significantly more volume and/or profits (i.e., higher prices). It's easy to say compromise on what you or I might like, but doing it for the masses is far different. I would have paid a lot more for a GT version with more insulation, more comfortable and adjustable seats, and a modern, 8-10 speed DCT transmission. I doubt that most people here want that. I'll bet the Supra will have most of that, however.
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Old 07-25-2018, 09:17 PM   #324
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If the marketing people really thought more hp would sell a lot more cars, you'd have more compromise. If they could sell the car for a lot more profit, you'd have more compromise. With the MX5, we'll see if more hp sells a lot more cars. I doubt it will in the longer term even with a very short term bump. They have to pay for any major redesign so you need either significantly more volume and/or profits (i.e., higher prices). It's easy to say compromise on what you or I might like, but doing it for the masses is far different. I would have paid a lot more for a GT version with more insulation, more comfortable and adjustable seats, and a modern, 8-10 speed DCT transmission. I doubt that most people here want that. I'll bet the Supra will have most of that, however.
I was really just referring to your case where you had to compromise handling for power.
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Old 07-25-2018, 11:30 PM   #325
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Originally Posted by Yoshoobaroo View Post
FA20: 102.5 HP/liter
MX-5: 90 HP/liter

The higher this number, the more NOx gasses the engine will produce, making it tougher to pass emissions.
Some reason I was thinking about the compression ratio as opposed to the amount of NOx the engine outputs.
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Old 07-25-2018, 11:32 PM   #326
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We don’t really know what Tada meant by “needing a different chassis”, the key word being different, if that is truly what he said. A different chassis might not be necessary to go get the groceries, but it may be needed to justify the price of a more expensive car and to hit the track with more power. Unlike the Miata that was mentioned previously, they probably would prefer to not just add parts to a platform that wasn’t designed for such things. They probably want to build a better complete car. So what needs to be changed on the 86 platform for more power?

Lots right?

-The transmission isn’t that strong so that might need to go and a bigger one might require a chassis change to widen the tunnel.
-A larger engine or FI system would add more weight to the front for a chassis that is already front heavy, so rebalancing the chassis and engine configuration would be ideal.

There are two issues. There are probably lots more issues that arise when building a car for longevity with more power.
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Old 07-26-2018, 09:30 AM   #327
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Originally Posted by Yoshoobaroo View Post
FA20: 102.5 HP/liter
MX-5: 90 HP/liter

The higher this number, the more NOx gasses the engine will produce, making it tougher to pass emissions.
Once you get beyond basic fuel efficiency requirements, how EPA and CAFE ratings/regulations work in this country confounds me. I think partially because I have a difficult time locating the proper information online. So this question might seem naive, or dripping with ignorance.

But how is now that, from basically 2010 onward, low displacement engines no longer rev high (above 7500) with reason given as emissions. But, at the same time high performance (larger displacement) engines from Ford, Porsche, Ferrari, Lambo, etc are more prolific than ever, and are revving higher than ever.

This is something I don't understand.
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Old 07-26-2018, 10:03 AM   #328
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Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k View Post
Once you get beyond basic fuel efficiency requirements, how EPA and CAFE ratings/regulations work in this country confounds me. I think partially because I have a difficult time locating the proper information online. So this question might seem naive, or dripping with ignorance.



But how is now that, from basically 2010 onward, low displacement engines no longer rev high (above 7500) with reason given as emissions. But, at the same time high performance (larger displacement) engines from Ford, Porsche, Ferrari, Lambo, etc are more prolific than ever, and are revving higher than ever.



This is something I don't understand.


Lots of low production run cars get exemptions, that's one way. The other reason is that low disp engines make more power than ever, and burn much hotter, which is good for fuel efficiency but bad for NOx emissions. So even if they don't rev as high they will make the power and thus produce the pollutants. There's no free lunch basically.
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Old 07-26-2018, 10:17 AM   #329
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Hmm, I see. I would agree that low displacement engines make more power than ever, but only for FI engines. For NA 4 cylinder engines basically only the FA20 is hitting 100hp/liter (unless I'm mistaken). Also can't you eliminate a lot of the NOx emissions by forgoing direct injection altogether? I know DI by itself isn't responsible for NOx, but that DI's advantage is being able to run leaner and higher CR's - conditions that lead to higher NOx.

Exemption doesn't really explain the Ford Coyote engine. Mass produced and taps out at 7400 or 7500 rpm. Voodoo goes up to 8250, but that might fall under the low production run category?
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Old 07-26-2018, 10:23 AM   #330
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I was really just referring to your case where you had to compromise handling for power.
I'm not totally sure about this depending on context. If you just add 80hp without also changing suspension, tires, etc., then aren't you compromising handling for power? Don't you need something to handle the greater power? Might you need a better clutch? If you're just adding 20 hp as in the MX5, then your compromise statement may be more accurate IMO.
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Old 07-26-2018, 10:28 AM   #331
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When I stroked the motor on one of my Porsches, the car was no longer balanced and as forgiving. It took me a year to bring it back with suspension changes, bigger wheels and tires and specially constructed transaxle mounts. I could out drag people better, but it was not as much fun at the track.
Should have just followed this blueprint....

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Old 07-26-2018, 10:32 AM   #332
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Originally Posted by rvoll View Post
I'm not totally sure about this depending on context. If you just add 80hp without also changing suspension, tires, etc., then aren't you compromising handling for power? Don't you need something to handle the greater power? Might you need a better clutch? If you're just adding 20 hp as in the MX5, then your compromise statement may be more accurate IMO.


This brings up a suspicion I've had for a while, that the ND was always supposed to have the 180hp motor, but they couldn't get it ready/pass emissions/whatever in time. So they released it with a detuned motor that did pass, while the car itself was engineered with the 180hp motor in mind. This could explain why Mazda didn't change much to beef the chassis up.
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Old 07-26-2018, 10:37 AM   #333
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Should have just followed this blueprint....

I couldn't. I owned 928's.... I never liked the 911's.....
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Old 07-26-2018, 10:59 AM   #334
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Should have just followed this blueprint....

So it looks like Tada agrees with Porsche that you just can't bolt on a turbo and make the car right..... What do those guys know about sports cars??????
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Old 07-26-2018, 12:00 PM   #335
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Old 07-26-2018, 12:08 PM   #336
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