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Old 10-31-2016, 11:53 AM   #29
Frost
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spartarus View Post
I have owned both, and driven, and wrenched on many examples of both.

I now own an S2000 AP1 and no FRS

Stock for stock, the steering feel in the FRS is better.
100% agree.

The Elise was 100% manual and had the best feel, the BRZ was surprisingly close and the S2k was dead last by a longshot.

Honda really dropped the ball on that one.
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Old 10-31-2016, 12:07 PM   #30
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Just bought an ap1 s2000 last week and while I can't explain as in depth as the last few posts, I can 100% say the steering feel is not BRZ level goodness.
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Old 10-31-2016, 12:10 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by Spartarus View Post
I can feel the outside wheel "toe in" when taking a set. I can also feel the worn out bushings flexing... 130k and 13 years is hard on rubber.

Anybody with insight on the differences in toe change...?
You'd acutally want the outside rear wheel to toe OUT to promote rotation.

Honda was messing with this a decade before the S2k came out.





Some light googling s2ki is telling me that the S2k has a toe curve that goes toe out when unloaded, toes in, then begins to toe out again when it gets compressed far enough. That's what catches people off guard as they turn, turn harder turn harder, oh shit the car started turning harder on its own and it's too late for me to countersteer and save it. And the toe out when unloaded can make heavy braking a bit hairy.

Seems like fun, hope I get to drive a stock one someday (if there are any left)




fwiw the 86 just toes in as it compresses, and something similar to the S2k was designed into the NC Miata that got a lot of question marks from the public when people figured it out.
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ineedyourdiddly
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Old 10-31-2016, 12:24 PM   #32
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I have tracked both as well, and just not to feel left out.....yes the steering feedback on the S2000 is virtually non-existent. The rest of the cars feedback is great, making the numb steering feel stand out even more, but hey its pretty old tech now.

The wife and I are thinking about getting a BRZ again (and keeping the S2000) so maybe i can enjoy both.

I have never dealt with the steering rack at all on a car, except for adjustments in alignment, so i may not be thinking this next comment thru. But, I wonder, if anyone has ever tried to run an S2000 as a manual rack only.
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Old 10-31-2016, 02:32 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by brzaapi View Post
I have tracked both as well, and just not to feel left out.....yes the steering feedback on the S2000 is virtually non-existent. The rest of the cars feedback is great, making the numb steering feel stand out even more, but hey its pretty old tech now.

The wife and I are thinking about getting a BRZ again (and keeping the S2000) so maybe i can enjoy both.

I have never dealt with the steering rack at all on a car, except for adjustments in alignment, so i may not be thinking this next comment thru. But, I wonder, if anyone has ever tried to run an S2000 as a manual rack only.
The electric rack is actually fairly easy to depower correctly. It fixes the feedback issue, and becomes straight manual steering. It involves removing the ball drive and motor.

Because the weight on the front axle is so low, the increase in low speed steering effort isn't that bad.

You're looking at 1380 lbs front axle S vs nearly 1600 in the 86.

It steers lighter than a manual rack EK Civic.

That all said, there's plenty of feedback from the S2000 steering, it's very precise, it's just not as good as the 86, and not as predictable. The predictability and neutrality of the 86 steering is most of what makes it so good.

I've driven sports cars with worse steering feel, especially modern ones.

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Seems like fun, hope I get to drive a stock one someday (if there are any left)
There are, but not many, and finding a stock AP1 in good shape is becoming an adventure fit for Don Quixote.

I happen to have a stock AP1, and I cleaned out a whole storage area for the stock parts because I am NOT digging them back up.

It's the first car I've ever worried about modifying.

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You'd acutally want the outside rear wheel to toe OUT to promote rotation..
I was actually talking about feeling the front outside wheel toe in... Fairly aggressively from what it feels like.

I'm not sure the rear bumpsteer curve is very agressive... I can't feel that as well... But it wants to rotate with heavy braking... But I attributed that to the front toe in... It drifts really really well. Anybody who tells you different can't drift... Definitely snappier than the 86, but plenty communcative... Failing to listen is punished with a backwards exit or opposite direction spin... Immediately.

Perhaps the rears are doing more than I give them credit for. I'm thoroughly used to the 86, where the fronts do the majority of the footwork and the rear axle is practically a throttle-actuated rudder. Haha.
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Last edited by Spartarus; 10-31-2016 at 03:20 PM.
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Old 11-02-2016, 06:03 PM   #34
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A few people have remarked about the S2000's chassis being weak/too flexy.

That's utterly ridiculous. It has an extremely rigid chassis for a convertible. 22,000 Nm/degree, better than many coupes of the same era. Is it as rigid as a modern sports coupe? No, is it as rigid as a brand new Miata? No, it was designed 20 years ago. For comparison a Miata of the same era as the S2000 had a torsional rigidity value of around 6,000 Nm/degree.
Do we actually know the ND is more rigid? I can't find the stats for the ND, but...

NA and NB: 6000 Nm/degree
NC: 8800 Nm/degree

I could be wrong, but I find it hard to believe that the ND would improve by 250% over the NC to even match the 22,000 Nm/degree you quoted, let alone bettering it.
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Old 11-03-2016, 01:23 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spartarus View Post
The electric rack is actually fairly easy to depower correctly. It fixes the feedback issue, and becomes straight manual steering. It involves removing the ball drive and motor.

Because the weight on the front axle is so low, the increase in low speed steering effort isn't that bad.

You're looking at 1380 lbs front axle S vs nearly 1600 in the 86.

It steers lighter than a manual rack EK Civic.

That all said, there's plenty of feedback from the S2000 steering, it's very precise, it's just not as good as the 86, and not as predictable. The predictability and neutrality of the 86 steering is most of what makes it so good.

I've driven sports cars with worse steering feel, especially modern ones.



There are, but not many, and finding a stock AP1 in good shape is becoming an adventure fit for Don Quixote.

I happen to have a stock AP1, and I cleaned out a whole storage area for the stock parts because I am NOT digging them back up.

It's the first car I've ever worried about modifying.



I was actually talking about feeling the front outside wheel toe in... Fairly aggressively from what it feels like.

I'm not sure the rear bumpsteer curve is very agressive... I can't feel that as well... But it wants to rotate with heavy braking... But I attributed that to the front toe in... It drifts really really well. Anybody who tells you different can't drift... Definitely snappier than the 86, but plenty communcative... Failing to listen is punished with a backwards exit or opposite direction spin... Immediately.

Perhaps the rears are doing more than I give them credit for. I'm thoroughly used to the 86, where the fronts do the majority of the footwork and the rear axle is practically a throttle-actuated rudder. Haha.
Throttle steer all the things.

I can help you set up the s2k to be telepathic.
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Old 11-03-2016, 10:58 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by CSG Mike View Post
Throttle steer all the things.

I can help you set up the s2k to be telepathic.
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Old 08-05-2017, 05:00 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sideways&Smiling View Post
Do we actually know the ND is more rigid? I can't find the stats for the ND, but...

NA and NB: 6000 Nm/degree
NC: 8800 Nm/degree

I could be wrong, but I find it hard to believe that the ND would improve by 250% over the NC to even match the 22,000 Nm/degree you quoted, let alone bettering it.
I've owned 3 S2000's, an NB, an ND, and recently test drove an ND (in addition to doing an event w/ them @ Texas Motor Speedway a couple of years ago). Based on my finely calibrated butt meter and my recollection of my S2000's, I'd be surprised if the ND is stiffer. The S2000 has high doors, a big/high transmission tunnel and roughly 400+ lbs., part of which no doubt is extra bracing. I love the ND, but it doesn't feel as solidly built to me as the S2000.
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Old 08-27-2017, 09:37 AM   #38
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Manual-steering 240Z was my street/track car when I got my '01 S2000 back in '07. I had thought the reportedly numb electric steering feel of the S2000 would be an issue, but honestly I have never been driving the car on the street or at the track and felt that the steering was too remote or numb. For me, it's tight and responsive and I can feel transitions between grip/no-grip, no problem. I don't have an 86 yet, but I've driven a few, and IMO the car on the street anyway feels pretty much like the AP1, which is pretty fantastic as far as I'm concerned.

I don't think I'm too insensitive to steering feel, really. I think my old S13 had better steering feel than either the S2k or 86, and my old S14 weirdly enough had much worse feel, very numb and rubbery.
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Old 08-28-2017, 11:54 AM   #39
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I had an opportunity to drive my friends AP2 back to back with my BRZ. We both have a basic header/catback/tune for power, and we both have ST/KW V1 coilovers and a couple driveline bushings.

Back to back, you realize just how good both cars are. I was not at all thinking 'one is better' I was just thinking 'they are both so good'. I found it very difficult to be critical while cruising two very well matched cars back to back.

(But my oh my...F20C>FA20...)
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Old 12-27-2017, 01:29 AM   #40
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MY 04 S2k (AP2) had Bilstein PSS9ís and I went with wider wheels in the rear.
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Old 12-28-2017, 03:48 PM   #41
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The twins have better steering & handling over the s2k. There are in different leagues, just IMO. However some people like the steering/handling of the s2k and it reminds me of this Direct tv commercial..

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Old 01-19-2018, 02:39 PM   #42
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The twins have better steering & handling over the s2k. There are in different leagues, just IMO. However some people like the steering/handling of the s2k and it reminds me of this Direct tv commercial..

Wet Bags - YouTube
Steering feel and "handling" are two very different things.

Without a doubt, the S2K has better weight distribution, better suspension design, and a better polar moment of inertia figure, allowing it to change directions much more quickly. Many people would call that "better handling." However, which is EASIER to drive well at the limit is a very different thing...
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