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Old 12-20-2018, 08:50 PM   #15
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I got this feeling when I upgraded my tires. I'm going to get a thick sway bar in the rear and lower it on pro kit springs to see how much better it feels.
Why thicker rear?

Is it understeering?

Swaybars are a double edged sword.
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Old 12-20-2018, 08:54 PM   #16
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Why thicker rear?

Is it understeering?

Swaybars are a double edged sword.
I don't do track days and I like having the car more prone to oversteer. Just personal preference, I'd prefer my car super stiff before super compliant
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Old 12-21-2018, 12:37 AM   #17
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You forgot STi. I just swapped all rubbers in the front and I'm very happy with them. No vibrations, just a little amount on noise. Expensive...
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Old 12-21-2018, 01:35 AM   #18
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I don't do track days and I like having the car more prone to oversteer. Just personal preference, I'd prefer my car super stiff before super compliant
Super stiff does not equate to fast, or safe for that matter, especially for a car that can see wet roads.

My car doesn't understeer at all (unless I make it), but, if required, gets its arse out on demand.

All a thicker rear bar does is sacrifice grip at the rear.

Preferably you want to add more grip at the front, not take away grip from the rear.

Well that's my idea anyway.

Not 1 of my cars that Ive set up for sprints has been any good on the street during wet weather or on dumpy roads, all were pretty stiffly sprung.

Hell, in the end I'm no expert, set your car up so you have maximum grip with your desired characteristics.

It just seems to me the most common option when people talk about performance IRT handling is everyone oversprings/over dampens or adds thick bars to get their desired characteristics, generally foresaking grip in the process.

The funny thing is, you might get the desired results by removing a psi or 2 psi from the front tyres, and, not lose any grip at the rear.

In finishing this longer than necessary rant, I would focus on a spring and correctly valved damper, combined with tyre pressure testing, prior to bandaiding the issue with sway bars that may do more harm than good.

Yadda yadda yadda, I'll stop now......
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Old 12-21-2018, 01:48 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by Leonardo View Post
Thanks for your answers.

Question: Why were they suspect from day one? Why not some other part(s)?


Like one of these parts: Coilovers, sway bars, endlinks, ball joints & tie rod ends, LCA, trailing arms, and toe arms.


I just replaced all those parts and my steering is much tighter, but I also have WAAAY more NVH.


Eventually I want to get the Complete Front and rear Whiteline bushing kits.
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I have this feeling from day one, not that I suspect subframe bushings are responsible for this from day one, that's why I ask if I should install first coilovers and see how it drives.
I think my description is very precise as if the car floats over the subframe and rear wheels, not directly connected with them, and is not the sway bar nor soft tires (215/40/18 PSS).

@86MLR no I haven't sudden oversteer just asking cause the car is super friendly at the limit and I want to keep this characteristic
I had the same situation with the rear floating around. This started when I changed wheels with stickier tires. With stock tires it wasn't noticeable. I used the rear subframe inserts from STI (ST20176AS000) and the problem was solved.
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Old 12-21-2018, 02:32 AM   #20
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My first thought was the STI replacement bushings but they need subframe removal and pressing the new ones that I don't want to do.

@nikitopo I didn't know there are STI inserts and they are original fitment on tS, are they same part number ST20176AS000 for front and rear subframe bushings and available only for the upper part (which I prefer)? Did you install also the thicker bolts ST20159ST000?
I think this is exactly what I was searching for if they are more compliant than the other aftermarket bushings!

@86MLR I totally agree, the keyword when setting a car is balance, that's another reason why I don't want to install very hard subframe bushings or bigger sway bars etc. Every part of the suspension affects differently the behaviour when cornering, making small changes in every aspect, suspension, bushings, adding camber / zero toe etc is better than say very big sway bars!
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Old 12-21-2018, 02:56 AM   #21
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Yes. These inserts are for the upper part and I installed them together with the thicker bolts.
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Old 12-21-2018, 10:36 AM   #22
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Whiteline subframe inserts are good. Minimal NVH increase. It's hard to describe the difference bushing changes like these make from the driver's seat, but there's just a little more connected feel, consistency, and confidence with the back end. More bushings ramp this up even more (and some have added benefits like reducing dynamic camber/toe changes) but you're also more likely to add more noticeable NVH. But you can do most of the rear end without making the car annoying with the right bushings.

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Old 12-21-2018, 10:56 AM   #23
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For me the most NVH came from the subframe bushings. The NVH from trans mount/shifter/diff bushing or insert whatever was minimal. As soon as I put in the rear subframe, bang!
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Old 12-21-2018, 11:06 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by StraightOuttaCanadaEh View Post
For me the most NVH came from the subframe bushings. The NVH from trans mount/shifter/diff bushing or insert whatever was minimal. As soon as I put in the rear subframe, bang!


This mirrors my experience. But holy crap is it worth it. So much more confidence when the back steps out!
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Old 12-21-2018, 11:37 AM   #25
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For me the most NVH came from the subframe bushings. The NVH from trans mount/shifter/diff bushing or insert whatever was minimal. As soon as I put in the rear subframe, bang!
Which did you do first?

From what I can tell, it's not one or the other, it's the combination of stiffening multiple things that create noticeable nvh. The diff bushings created undesirable nvh for me, but they went in after the subframe ones, the rest of my bushings are stock.
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Old 12-21-2018, 12:00 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by 86MLR View Post
Super stiff does not equate to fast, or safe for that matter, especially for a car that can see wet roads.

My car doesn't understeer at all (unless I make it), but, if required, gets its arse out on demand.

All a thicker rear bar does is sacrifice grip at the rear.

Preferably you want to add more grip at the front, not take away grip from the rear.

Well that's my idea anyway.

Not 1 of my cars that Ive set up for sprints has been any good on the street during wet weather or on dumpy roads, all were pretty stiffly sprung.

Hell, in the end I'm no expert, set your car up so you have maximum grip with your desired characteristics.

It just seems to me the most common option when people talk about performance IRT handling is everyone oversprings/over dampens or adds thick bars to get their desired characteristics, generally foresaking grip in the process.

The funny thing is, you might get the desired results by removing a psi or 2 psi from the front tyres, and, not lose any grip at the rear.

In finishing this longer than necessary rant, I would focus on a spring and correctly valved damper, combined with tyre pressure testing, prior to bandaiding the issue with sway bars that may do more harm than good.

Yadda yadda yadda, I'll stop now......

Hm. Maybe I'll change my school of thought. I'm always up for a change, maybe I'll skip the sway bar on this car and do subframe bushings, support for this seems overwhelming! As I said, I wasn't really trying to keep balance or have the car handle all around "better", I was chasing a specific feeling. I'll stop threadjacking, but everyone here seems to like them so much, I'll change my ways and try some bushings instead!
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Old 12-21-2018, 12:16 PM   #27
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This mirrors my experience. But holy crap is it worth it. So much more confidence when the back steps out!
I was wondering why Subaru changes on tS only the front bushings of rear subframe (they added lower front stoppers on 2015 tS) and probably your experience explains it.
I may try the tS bushings & bolts or from the Whiteline KDT922 kit only the front bushings and may be later I'll add the rears.
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Old 12-21-2018, 12:59 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by strat61caster View Post
Which did you do first?

From what I can tell, it's not one or the other, it's the combination of stiffening multiple things that create noticeable nvh. The diff bushings created undesirable nvh for me, but they went in after the subframe ones, the rest of my bushings are stock.
First I did the trans insert, shifter bushing and diff bushings. Then a couple months later I did the subframe. At first the NVH from the first 3 was noticeable but I felt like they broke in after a week or two. Either that or I got used to them. The subframe NVH hasn't really gone away, and you may be right. It may be a compound effect.
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