SCCA Time Trials National Program

[tony_r]

I don't really have an opinion about the tire thing, as RE's and Rivals will probably not last an entire event if they're worn. I would be bringing stickers or mostly fresh stuff anyway.

I can see both sides. One is that One Lap of America runs an entire week on a single set of tires. If they can do a week, I don't see how we can bitch about a single event.

But I also see your side, where this might actually decrease costs by running worn sets to burn them up, and going to a fresh set if necessary for weather or otherwise.

[steverife]

Originally Posted by tony_r

I don't really have an opinion about the tire thing, as RE's and Rivals will probably not last an entire event if they're worn. I would be bringing stickers or mostly fresh stuff anyway.

I can see both sides. One is that One Lap of America runs an entire week on a single set of tires. If they can do a week, I don't see how we can bitch about a single event.

But I also see your side, where this might actually decrease costs by running worn sets to burn them up, and going to a fresh set if necessary for weather or otherwise.

I hear you.

The difference is that One Lap is a pretty high profile, really competitive event. These are pitched as laid back fun events.

I get the 1 set of tires concept. I think there should be a rain contingency.

[M0nk3y]

The biggest gripe about the current tire ruleset is that within the rules there is wording that makes any ruling based off an opinion - regarding if you're granted another set of tires or not.

What constitutes you being able to replace your "one" set of tires? It's all up to a personal matter not black and white. What if you brought 3/32nd tires to the event and destroyed them? Is that acceptable wear?

What if you had a pig heavy FWD car that simply just punishes the tires? Will it be ruled not in your favor because you "drove too hard"?

What if you hit curbing and caught a gator or something which causes damage to the tire? Is that not in the spirit and thus not granted a change?

I get the whole idea of the tire ruling, but it's simply stupid. This doesn't even go into the potential for rain, and now you're risking people who are going out on worn Rivals or RE-71Rs who may have a better tire for the rain and suddenly it becomes a safety issue.


The biggest issue with the ruleset, as mentioned earlier - is that you have club racers determining this stuff and it's matter of fact all personal opinion. It was simply pointed out yesterday that per the wording in Touring - final drive swap is acceptable but yet they clarified that "This wasn't their intent". There seems to be no clear flushing of the rules and it seems very rushed to try and tap into this gold mine, IMO.

It is funny, they sold this whole TT aspect as "Have fun come on out". Now all the sudden we have a shit ton of rules and stupid language as they're trying to make something out of it.

[Shark_Bait88]

I think really the toughest part for me, in consideration of building a dual use 86 Cup stock class and SCCA TT Sport car, is the limit on camber adjustment back to using just the crash bolts. Certainly adding the springs can help there though. I threw together a quick build on the 86 Cup calculator that also works out to almost a full Sport class build, and it actually still looks pretty good.



Would likely have a 2nd set of 17x8 wheels with different tires for TT, since I will run the SX2 for 86 Cup.

I don't really like being restricted to TireRack for springs, as I'd much rather run RCE Yellows than any of the offerings on TR. Though that could likely be appealed under point 4 of the Springs section. Yellows are very common on these cars, and it could easily be argued they follow the spirit of that rule.

Also, if I was running an 86 Cup only car I'd substitute the intake for E85 and add rear LCAs.

Question on the bushings portion. Would that exclude the Whiteline rear diff bushings then? I'm assuming yes, but haven't looked into the difference in materials much. I need to replace that bushing, and several others, before next season and would ideally like to go with something more suited to track use than stock.

[finch1750]

As an outsider, this ruleset seems doable to start with. I have autox a few times but decided to go the track route in the end, though my car is still close to STX prep since I planned for that path originally. And thankfully the Norcal 86Drive Challenge rules are more forgiving to SCCA mods then 86cup rules (STX is a street class car vs. touring/modified basically). And I can second @Tony r as there are very few autox guys that come to the track to compete.

My biggest gripe is the current state of "200tw" tires that wear way faster. It does nothing but increase cost for drivers over the course of a season. And if you autox you would likely need a separate set for TT since you don't necessarily want such a wide tire.

As far as people testing the rules I just see that as what happens in any competitive environment, no matter if the goal was that or to give people an opportunity to get their feet wet. The key will be incentives that benefit the new people and not just stuff for the top guys at each event.

But if I look at things like GTA, I either need to put a catted header in as well or be in class with turbo cars. Or basically needed a track only car with full safety gear for NASA. So for someone like me new to tracking, I like this opportunity. The more series there are the more likely you can cross over between one or two and still be competitive in class.

[tony_r]

Originally Posted by M0nk3y

It is funny, they sold this whole TT aspect as "Have fun come on out". Now all the sudden we have a shit ton of rules and stupid language as they're trying to make something out of it.

It still is, the rules draft was always there. Just as with autocross, prepping to the limit of the rules is as serious as you want it to be. I am not a fan of the SCCA rule mentality, I think its writing a bunch of stuff to save people from themselves and it really doesn't help anyone, just confuses the message (read: preambles stuff the SEB is pushing).

Overall I think the idea of and the outline is OKAY, it always can be better, but SCCA has to make this work with the other programs and that paints them into a corner.

On the tire rule - I don't find RE's or Rivals to be "unsafe" in the wet. They are not optimal, but they are not going to send me into a wall. I will have to drive more cautiously, for sure. If it's projected to be wet, I'm running RE's. If it's going to be a torrential downpour I'm bringing ECS's. If the ECS choice fucks me, oh well. I'm there to have fun anyway.

[Shark_Bait88]

Went ahead and submitted a letter to allow an exception for the RCE Yellow springs in Sport, since they're so common among Toyobaru and WRX track cars that are running just a lowering spring/shock setup. Fingers crossed it's approved, because I'd rather run Yellows than either Eibach or HR options.

[strat61caster]

Eh, I could write a novel but nobody gives a fuck.

I just have to ask myself if I want to spend >$1k for a weekend TT event (tires, entry fee, hotel, gas, wear and tear, etc.) and if I show up with used tires will I be on the bench after they wear out or will I be able to run ~300TW beaters to get some fun seat time at the end of the event. If I'm not showing up with competitive tires might as well hit an HPDE.

Of course I'm probably just overestimating my own talent, I'd be racing for a trophy spot behind Tony anyway

[tony_r]

If anyone comes with a reasonably prepped S2k and at least decent talent, I'm fucked too. Honestly it's going to be a great program and more about the people and experience, with some fun competition and track time sprinkled in.

[Shark_Bait88]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

Eh, I could write a novel but nobody gives a fuck.

I just have to ask myself if I want to spend >$1k for a weekend TT event (tires, entry fee, hotel, gas, wear and tear, etc.) and if I show up with used tires will I be on the bench after they wear out or will I be able to run ~300TW beaters to get some fun seat time at the end of the event. If I'm not showing up with competitive tires might as well hit an HPDE.

Of course I'm probably just overestimating my own talent, I'd be racing for a trophy spot behind Tony anyway

In all reality I care more about participating in 86 Cup Midwest, but wouldn't mind making it out to the GMR and NCM events if possible. I likely won't be competitive in either series anyway. lol

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by Shark_Bait88

Went ahead and submitted a letter to allow an exception for the RCE Yellow springs in Sport, since they're so common among Toyobaru and WRX track cars that are running just a lowering spring/shock setup. Fingers crossed it's approved, because I'd rather run Yellows than either Eibach or HR options.

If I'm reading the rules right, can you run a Bilstein B16/14 or KW V1 or ST on an 86 in Sport class?

I don't see anything prohibiting height adjustment when changing to an aftermarket damper/spring... I'm sure I'm missing something as I doubt it's the intent.

Edit: nvm there's something about 'OE attachment points' which would prevent spring perch adjustability. Carry on.

Originally Posted by tony_r

If anyone comes with a reasonably prepped S2k and at least decent talent, I'm fucked too.

That still leaves third open for contention if nobody else really fast shows up. A few 86cup guys and the Tsang's, a 4-banger Camaro/Mustang, S2k, RX8, T4 could be really deep at the first event if people come out.

[Shark_Bait88]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

If I'm reading the rules right, can you run a Bilstein B16/14 or KW V1 or ST on an 86 in Sport class?

I don't see anything prohibiting height adjustment when changing to an aftermarket damper/spring... I'm sure I'm missing something as I doubt it's the intent.

Edit: nvm there's something about 'OE attachment points' which would prevent spring perch adjustability. Carry on.

I was thinking the same thing at first. haha

[Chuckls]

Im glad I live close to NCM, which hosted the first SCCA TT. Pretty rad!

[Shark_Bait88]

Initial response to my question about an exception for RCE Yellows sounds positive. Will see what the board ends up deciding.