tuning in fl

[Visconti]

Originally Posted by jamesm

for sure, i'd never argue that. i just think it's ok to lower the barrier of entry and let the rest of us have a go at it.

anyway, a bit off topic lol.

I don't think there's any problem with lowering the barrier. But if free tunes start going around it won't benefit the community as much as you think.

John

[coastertrav]

Originally Posted by Visconti

I don't think there's any problem with lowering the barrier. But if free tunes start going around it won't benefit the community as much as you think.

John

I strongly, STRONGLY disagree.

I think getting involved in tuning is similar to anyone who gets involved in fabrication or custom electrical work. I come from the Miata community, where at the age of 19, after about a year of research, I jumped into building my own Megasquirt system for my NB in a standalone configuration. Zero tuning experience and only a water pipe theory of understanding of electronics. Took me the better part of three months, but after much help from the community I had the car running standalone with a base map from another member. That was five years ago, and while I've since sold the Miata it is still running around town with my Megasquirt and tune on it.

Could it make a little more power if a professional tuned it? Of course, but rather than me getting my feet wet with the help of the community and eventually sparking my curiosity to get my EE degree, I would still view engine management as scary voodoo. I also wouldn't have taken on the project to convert my old cafe racer from quad carb'd to fuel injection, but I did.

Now you may say that I am the exception to the norm, and I might be inclined to agree. I'm sure there would be more blown motors, and flashing the stock hardware has a lot lower (price) barrier to entry than assembling your own standalone (even though DIYAutotune provided a plug and play version that anyone can install for a lot less than your reflashes are going for), but even if one out of every 1000 members on this forum started compiling base maps and doing tuning on their own to add to the knowledgebase, there would be 25 people churning out useful information for the better of the community. Also, from experience, when you get a few guys to answer the big questions and set up the starting points, more and more people jump off from their information and add new experiences from troubles and successes they've had.

After all that, John, I think you're doing some great things and I enjoy reading about your work. All of your happy customers are an example of the job you've been doing (and one day I might even be one). We just disagree.

TL;DR
I'm not a tuner but like to be one on weekends.

Edit:
Holy off topic...(I am enjoying this debate though, maybe we can get this all moved to a new thread)

[ATL BRZ]

[mad_sb]

Originally Posted by Visconti

I don't think there's any problem with lowering the barrier. But if free tunes start going around it won't benefit the community as much as you think.

John

There is a HUGE difference between free tunes and a community of smart folks working together in a distributed environment to further the knowledge of how the ecu operates under all conditions and how it can be modified to better suit the enthusiast community. What open source / open map tuning solutions do is facilitate distributed parallel development.

For example, I could spend three hours on the dyno testing out different combination of cam timing settings while at the same time another user is on another dyno testing out various combinations of calculated torque map manipulations and so on and so on.

I understand and respect the time you have put into your tunes, as well as the other pro tuners on the scene. And at the end of the day, what software you choose to use is up to you. Your customers will seek you out because of your skill as a tuner, not because ecutek was the first to market with a tuning solution.

Years from now after ecutek has moved on to the next new platform, and the ProTuners are busy learning that new platform, the open source community will still be busy writing new patches to add new features or correct nonsensical behavior found in oem code for a platform that has lost the attention of those that must keep looking forward to keep growing their business.

Again, no disrespect intended just my .02

[jamesm]

Originally Posted by mad_sb

There is a HUGE difference between free tunes and a community of smart folks working together in a distributed environment to further the knowledge of how the ecu operates under all conditions and how it can be modified to better suit the enthusiast community. What open source / open map tuning solutions do is facilitate distributed parallel development.

For example, I could spend three hours on the dyno testing out different combination of cam timing settings while at the same time another user is on another dyno testing out various combinations of calculated torque map manipulations and so on and so on.

I understand and respect the time you have put into your tunes, as well as the other pro tuners on the scene. And at the end of the day, what software you choose to use is up to you. Your customers will seek you out because of your skill as a tuner, not because ecutek was the first to market with a tuning solution.

Years from now after ecutek has moved on to the next new platform, and the ProTuners are busy learning that new platform, the open source community will still be busy writing new patches to add new features or correct nonsensical behavior found in oem code for a platform that has lost the attention of those that must keep looking forward to keep growing their business.

Again, no disrespect intended just my .02

that's exactly the benefit i see. concurrency of action, more efficient development, larger talent pool, lower costs for tuners and end users.

open source tuning solutions do not compete with tuners, they compete with proprietary tuning solution providers like ecutek. a visconti tune will always be valuable because of the earned reputation.

open source is not anti-capitalist, just ask DHH's one-off Pagani Zonda. you can make money selling (and supporting, as a tuner would do) open source software. open source != free. i write open source software every day, and get paid well for it.

[Visconti]

Originally Posted by mad_sb

Years from now after ecutek has moved on to the next new platform, and the ProTuners are busy learning that new platform, the open source community will still be busy writing new patches to add new features or correct nonsensical behavior found in oem code for a platform that has lost the attention of those that must keep looking forward to keep growing their business.

Again, no disrespect intended just my .02

Your input is more then welcome

Won't matter if its 2 months from now or 4 years from now EcuTek will only give up on this platform if the tuner network gives up on EcuTek.

If this happens it will be a shame because like I said before open source is good but look at the EVO 8-9 community. David (Tephra) lost all interest working on his free patches when he sold his cars. David halted his work after he asked that vendors send him a small donation every time we used his custom patches on customer EVOXs. When 90% of the vendors didn't do this he just stopped doing the work.

So in the beginning it was sweet that everyone that owned the car was helping out each other out for free. As time went out people lost interest or just moved on. New owners get shafted because EcuTek (and Cobb) got pushed out and don't want to revisit a project that they basically put a lot of time into and had a loss on.

That's not to say that there isn't good support for these cars now, its just very unorganized and when you run into a problem you have no one to turn to.

If the EVO had half the stuff these BRZ/FRS/GT86 had software wise.. man I would be going nuts on those cars.

I guess be careful what you wish for.

[mad_sb]

I was an EcuTek tuner for Evo 10.. the minute ECU flash came out with support for Evo 10 the USERS gave up on EcuTek... not the tuners.

While one developer may give up, another developer comes along to pickup the reigns. When Tephra went to work for COBB other guys stepped up and started making patches.

EcuTek does not, in my opinion, have a long term supportable model. They do an excellent job of giving tuners the ability to work on a platform before anyone else, and early adopters will happily pay the price. But, once less expensive solutions hit the market, the majority of the user community
will migrate to those solutions.

EcuTek has gotten better with race rom and the end user flashing solution, but the price point is still too high IMO and they do not offer any solution for users that want to tweak their own tune, or a base map provided by a tuner or ecutek like cobb.

In the end i guess it's different strokes for different folks

Originally Posted by Visconti

Your input is more then welcome

Won't matter if its 2 months from now or 4 years from now EcuTek will only give up on this platform if the tuner network gives up on EcuTek.

If this happens it will be a shame because like I said before open source is good but look at the EVO 8-9 community. David (Tephra) lost all interest working on his free patches when he sold his cars. David halted his work after he asked that vendors send him a small donation every time we used his custom patches on customer EVOXs. When 90% of the vendors didn't do this he just stopped doing the work.

So in the beginning it was sweet that everyone that owned the car was helping out each other out for free. As time went out people lost interest or just moved on. New owners get shafted because EcuTek (and Cobb) got pushed out and don't want to revisit a project that they basically put a lot of time into and had a loss on.

That's not to say that there isn't good support for these cars now, its just very unorganized and when you run into a problem you have no one to turn to.

If the EVO had half the stuff these BRZ/FRS/GT86 had software wise.. man I would be going nuts on those cars.

I guess be careful what you wish for.

[Visconti]

Originally Posted by mad_sb

I was an EcuTek tuner for Evo 10.. the minute ECU flash came out with support for Evo 10 the USERS gave up on EcuTek... not the tuners.

While one developer may give up, another developer comes along to pickup the reigns. When Tephra went to work for COBB other guys stepped up and started making patches.

EcuTek does not, in my opinion, have a long term supportable model. They do an excellent job of giving tuners the ability to work on a platform before anyone else, and early adopters will happily pay the price. But, once less expensive solutions hit the market, the majority of the user community
will migrate to those solutions.

EcuTek has gotten better with race rom and the end user flashing solution, but the price point is still too high IMO and they do not offer any solution for users that want to tweak their own tune, or a base map provided by a tuner or ecutek like cobb.

In the end i guess it's different strokes for different folks

No, your right.. it was mostly the users that gave up on EcuTek.

EcuTek didn't have anything cool like RaceRom stuff to keep users from jumping ship.

EVO 8-9 stuff was also in pretty heavy development so everyone was eager to work on EVO X

Yeah, but Tephra's work and John Banks (Speed Density) work hasn't really moved forward in anyway since they stopped working on it.

Golden is really the only guy supporting the EVOs right now.


For years EcuTek has been ProTuner only. Allowing enduser tuning wont happen over night, but I think they hear everyone loud and clear.

-John

[coastertrav]

Originally Posted by Visconti

For years EcuTek has been ProTuner only. Allowing enduser tuning wont happen over night, but I think they hear everyone loud and clear.

-John

I think that is my personal biggest gripe. If I'm dropping close to $1k for a tuning solution I want to be able to make my own changes. It isn't so important to someone with a N/A tune, but I know if I go turbo it would be annoying to have to bust out the wallet and schedule time with a tuner every time I do a supporting mod, like a better exhaust or swap to a different turbo. Even if the end user only had access to the fuel and ignition tables it would make me feel a lot better.

I've already gone through the closed tuner reflashes once with a friend who had a turbo Mustang tuned with SCT. It was unpleasant looking at the logs and seeing exactly where it needed more fuel, but being unable to modify the tables on our own. It always seemed to be phone calls and 3-5 days of emails with his tuner to get anything changed.

[jamesm]

if ecutek allowed end user tuning i would own one, i know that much.

[mad_sb]

BRZedit allows the pro version users to choose if they want to lock the tune or not from what I understand. As an user of the personal version, i can view other personal version users tunes, but i cannot directly flash them. I can however, copy and paste between maps... so If i had some hot new cam timing maps i wanted to share with @jamesm i could send him my file, he could copy and past the cam timing maps into his file and flash that.

This gives vendors the ability to produce base maps for their mods and distribute them without licensing issues etc. If, for example, nameless wanted to provide a base map to go along with their equal length headers they could do so. Pro tuners and personal tuners alike could use that map as the base for a custom tune. Slave version users could use that map without any modification and take logs to send to a pro tuner to have a custom tune done. Intake manufacturers could proved a base map that has the maf scaling dialed in so you can just copy and past etc etc etc.

I know they are not as far along in feature development as ecutek at the moment, but the price point is lower for both tuners and end users and they are actively working on rom modifications. It may not be the perfect solution yet, but i feel it is a big step in the right direction.

[mad_sb]

Now that I think about it, what i REALLY want is megasquirt with high resoultion maps, canbus integration (im fine keeping the stock ecu for canbus stuff) AND, most importantly, an OBDII emulator so i can pass the OBDII inspections we have every year here

[Visconti]

Originally Posted by mad_sb

BRZedit allows the pro version users to choose if they want to lock the tune or not from what I understand. As an user of the personal version, i can view other personal version users tunes, but i cannot directly flash them. I can however, copy and paste between maps... so If i had some hot new cam timing maps i wanted to share with @jamesm i could send him my file, he could copy and past the cam timing maps into his file and flash that.

This gives vendors the ability to produce base maps for their mods and distribute them without licensing issues etc. If, for example, nameless wanted to provide a base map to go along with their equal length headers they could do so. Pro tuners and personal tuners alike could use that map as the base for a custom tune. Slave version users could use that map without any modification and take logs to send to a pro tuner to have a custom tune done. Intake manufacturers could proved a base map that has the maf scaling dialed in so you can just copy and past etc etc etc.

I know they are not as far along in feature development as ecutek at the moment, but the price point is lower for both tuners and end users and they are actively working on rom modifications. It may not be the perfect solution yet, but i feel it is a big step in the right direction.

Yup

I wonder how brzedit got all the same table names as ecutek.. Hrmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Ecutek also has 30x24 maps

[mad_sb]

Originally Posted by Visconti

Yup

I wonder how brzedit got all the same table names as ecutek.. Hrmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Ecutek also has 30x24 maps

I'm not gonna touch that debate with a 10 foot pole lol... Same debate years ago with ecuflash etc. I know Mervan at ecutek black listed a few evo tuners over that.... turns out they were not good tuners to begin with so...