FA20 Engine Oiling, Bearings, and Starvation

[kombatlion]

Originally Posted by Dezoris

The straight answer is yes if you have a turbo and warm temps. You will want to monitor your oil temps now however and see where your oil temps are now before switching.

Well, now the engine os blown jajaja but when I fix it will check!

[Element Tuning]

Keep in mind we are not concerned with engine bearing life at 185 degrees it's when you're pushing the engine and seeing 230+ degrees. If you can't get your oil temperature up it's probably due to not running a thermostat in your oil sandwich adapter.

I do think though in colder climates and not during track season the demand for oil viscosity that keeps oil pressure high enough is less critical. So for sure drop down a little for winter but A) don't run an oil cooler without a thermostat and B) run an oil weight that is appropriate for the pressure you record during aggressive driving.

I'm all for 80-90 psi if you can get it and for a Subaru engine 140 psi at cold start just isn't abnormal but.........run only what you need. If you need to partially block your oil cooler in the winter then do it. We even see track cars that have to block their radiator during the colder months.

I've had to run 50w to handle the oil pressure we are loosing due to oil temperature and I doubt even in the winter I'll drop less than 10w30 for street use. I would never race a 400+ whp FA with less than 40w.

[Dezoris]

Originally Posted by Element Tuning

Keep in mind we are not concerned with engine bearing life at 185 degrees it's when you're pushing the engine and seeing 230+ degrees. If you can't get your oil temperature up it's probably due to not running a thermostat in your oil sandwich adapter.

I do think though in colder climates and not during track season the demand for oil viscosity that keeps oil pressure high enough is less critical. So for sure drop down a little for winter but A) don't run an oil cooler without a thermostat and B) run an oil weight that is appropriate for the pressure you record during aggressive driving.

I'm all for 80-90 psi if you can get it and for a Subaru engine 140 psi at cold start just isn't abnormal but.........run only what you need. If you need to partially block your oil cooler in the winter then do it. We even see track cars that have to block their radiator during the colder months.

I've had to run 50w to handle the oil pressure we are loosing due to oil temperature and I doubt even in the winter I'll drop less than 10w30 for street use. I would never race a 400+ whp FA with less than 40w.

I talked with Mocal about their thermostatic plates used on most oil cooler setups because last year when temps went south of 50F oil temps would never come up properly. And when it got below 30F forget it.

Even the thermostatic plates allow for a small amount of oil to flow to the cooler at all times to prevent air lock. So what that means is even though its not full open below 185F the cooler is still getting oil circulating through. I tried blocking mine off but then of course coolant temps started to run higher. So I just disconnected it. I even replaced the Mocal plate as a test. Same story.

This weekend we finished our track video with the S2000 and honestly we just parked the FRS after 4 sessions. On 10w30 I got 9 flat out laps before temps hit 245F and oil pressure hit 45PSI at 7000RPMS. Just did two cool down laps to let oil temps recover, then got another 4 laps before it hit 245 again. Ambient temps were around 65F.

Now the answer I keep getting told to run a bigger cooler.
Well I already have issues on the street with over cooling as it is.

Its not a race car I get it. But there is no good in between.
High oil pressure can be just as bad as low. And I hate seeing 85PSI at 2000RPM for half my commute to work on 10w30.

So its just another thing to deal with if I want to track this car. Change oil at track to 30 or 40wt, and switch back to 0w20 for street duty.
Remove oil cooler during winter, put it back on in spring.

[blackfireball5]

Originally Posted by Dezoris

I talked with Mocal about their thermostatic plates used on most oil cooler setups because last year when temps went south of 50F oil temps would never come up properly. And when it got below 30F forget it.

Even the thermostatic plates allow for a small amount of oil to flow to the cooler at all times to prevent air lock. So what that means is even though its not full open below 185F the cooler is still getting oil circulating through. I tried blocking mine off but then of course coolant temps started to run higher. So I just disconnected it. I even replaced the Mocal plate as a test. Same story.

This weekend we finished our track video with the S2000 and honestly we just parked the FRS after 4 sessions. On 10w30 I got 9 flat out laps before temps hit 245F and oil pressure hit 45PSI at 7000RPMS. Just did two cool down laps to let oil temps recover, then got another 4 laps before it hit 245 again. Ambient temps were around 65F.

Now the answer I keep getting told to run a bigger cooler.
Well I already have issues on the street with over cooling as it is.

Its not a race car I get it. But there is no good in between.
High oil pressure can be just as bad as low. And I hate seeing 85PSI at 2000RPM for half my commute to work on 10w30.

So its just another thing to deal with if I want to track this car. Change oil at track to 30 or 40wt, and switch back to 0w20 for street duty.
Remove oil cooler during winter, put it back on in spring.

What about one of those Laminova water/oil cooler setups? How effective would that be warming in the cold and cooling in the hot?

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=42511

[Element Tuning]

Originally Posted by Dezoris

I talked with Mocal about their thermostatic plates used on most oil cooler setups because last year when temps went south of 50F oil temps would never come up properly. And when it got below 30F forget it.

Even the thermostatic plates allow for a small amount of oil to flow to the cooler at all times to prevent air lock. So what that means is even though its not full open below 185F the cooler is still getting oil circulating through. I tried blocking mine off but then of course coolant temps started to run higher. So I just disconnected it. I even replaced the Mocal plate as a test. Same story.

This weekend we finished our track video with the S2000 and honestly we just parked the FRS after 4 sessions. On 10w30 I got 9 flat out laps before temps hit 245F and oil pressure hit 45PSI at 7000RPMS. Just did two cool down laps to let oil temps recover, then got another 4 laps before it hit 245 again. Ambient temps were around 65F.

Now the answer I keep getting told to run a bigger cooler.
Well I already have issues on the street with over cooling as it is.

Its not a race car I get it. But there is no good in between.
High oil pressure can be just as bad as low. And I hate seeing 85PSI at 2000RPM for half my commute to work on 10w30.

So its just another thing to deal with if I want to track this car. Change oil at track to 30 or 40wt, and switch back to 0w20 for street duty.
Remove oil cooler during winter, put it back on in spring.

45 psi at 7k rpm is going to kill your motor and 85 psi at 2k rpm is not so just get that out of your head. Do I think you should fire your car up and blast away at 140 psi, no. Just wait until it's down to 120 or less until you drive if you are concerned but honestly from all the years we've been building and racing these boxer engines it's normal. We even strive for 90+ psi under normal driving conditions because it means well have 80+ hard driving and 75+ while racing.

If you're not racing in the colder months I would still strive for 60+ psi with a heavier oil and block your oil cooler temporarily if need be. Viscosity is a number based on oil temp so you have to account for that if operating at higher thsn the rated 100c.

[Dezoris]

Originally Posted by blackfireball5

What about one of those Laminova water/oil cooler setups? How effective would that be warming in the cold and cooling in the hot?

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=42511

I dont think those will have the cooling power for forced induction cars on track like the liquid to air units. If you can hit 212F on the street fast that would not help. However it would be excellent for those running N/A cars and probably great for those running thicker oil in cooler climates. I Dont know how I feel running two oil coolers/warmers though its just too much crap on this car for a street setup.

Originally Posted by Element Tuning

45 psi at 7k rpm is going to kill your motor and 85 psi at 2k rpm is not so just get that out of your head. Do I think you should fire your car up and blast away at 140 psi, no. Just wait until it's down to 120 or less until you drive if you are concerned but honestly from all the years we've been building and racing these boxer engines it's normal. We even strive for 90+ psi under normal driving conditions because it means well have 80+ hard driving and 75+ while racing.

If you're not racing in the colder months I would still strive for 60+ psi with a heavier oil and block your oil cooler temporarily if need be. Viscosity is a number based on oil temp so you have to account for that if operating at higher thsn the rated 100c.

I really value your opinion obviously, I would have never been testing this without your threads. In honesty I wont run the car in winter anymore because its already a rust bucket after two years. But I think after this discussion I'd just run two oils going forward. IN winter for sub zero starts stick with 0w20. In summer track months go to 40w. 10w30 redline is a thick oil and at 245F oil temps, pressures go terminal.

The bigger issue is I dont think people who track these cars with FI monitor this at all. My setup is ultra conservative compared to most.

[blackfireball5]

I regret not logging or at least paying more attention to my oil pressure gauge when I was tracking this summer.

[Dezoris]

Originally Posted by blackfireball5

I regret not logging or at least paying more attention to my oil pressure gauge when I was tracking this summer.

Its definitely worth doing next time you are out.

[mkivsoopra]

Originally Posted by blackfireball5

What about one of those Laminova water/oil cooler setups? How effective would that be warming in the cold and cooling in the hot?

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=42511

Like @Dezoris said, this setup is not enough for FI. On my PTuning turbo car, I hit 265F oil temps within 5 mins of spirited street driving on a hot day (100F) with that laminova.

[stonenewt]

Originally Posted by mkivsoopra

Like @Dezoris said, this setup is not enough for FI. On my PTuning turbo car, I hit 265F oil temps within 5 mins of spirited street driving on a hot day (100F) with that laminova.

If your water temps are rising then you've not got enough base line cooling to start with. Go back to the drawing board & start again time. I went through several iterations on my Elise before I nailed it but once right it worked much better than other people using radiator type oil coolers.

EDIT: Also worth mentioning I found that with FI the laminova absolutely hammered the main radiator. For my application I used an 90mm aux oil cooler for the turbo oil feed (IIRC post-turbo), this seemed to have a dramatic impact on oil temp runaway with a lower load on the cooling system.

[Calum]

Originally Posted by Dezoris

But I think after this discussion I'd just run two oils going forward. IN winter for sub zero starts stick with 0w20. In summer track months go to 40w.

Any thoughts on just running a 0w40 all year?

[Dezoris]

Originally Posted by Calum

Any thoughts on just running a 0w40 all year?

I think Phil wont agree here. Since he is building race setups. But personally if you drive in real cold 6 months out of the year, real world sub zero starts and dont see track time during those months running a 40wt oil is just too much. Cold starts are bad enough but cold starts on thick oil just not worth the increased wear. Not only that its highly inefficient. For not performance applications for efficiency sake you want the lowest oil pressure possible trying to target that 10psi per 1000rpm. On a 40wt in winter you be running over 90psi at 2000rpm for a majority of the time until you hit 200F oil temps. Which wont happen with an air oil cooler.

[Calum]

Originally Posted by Dezoris

I think Phil wont agree here. Since he is building race setups. But personally if you drive in real cold 6 months out of the year, real world sub zero starts and dont see track time during those months running a 40wt oil is just too much. Cold starts are bad enough but cold starts on thick oil just not worth the increased wear. Not only that its highly inefficient. For not performance applications for efficiency sake you want the lowest oil pressure possible trying to target that 10psi per 1000rpm. On a 40wt in winter you be running over 90psi at 2000rpm for a majority of the time until you hit 200F oil temps. Which wont happen with an air oil cooler.

The number before the w indicates the lowest point that the oil can maintain a minimum pour point. The number after the w indicates the viscosity at a set higher temperature. A 0w40 will have a lower viscosity at cold temperatures and a 10w30. If you want an oil that gives relatively low viscosity when the engine is cold and relatively high viscosity when the engine is hot, a 0w40 should give you both of those.

The only caveat is that SAE allows oils that meet 0w30 standards to be labeled as 0w40 as well as oils that meet 0w40 standards.

[Element Tuning]

Originally Posted by Dezoris

I dont think those will have the cooling power for forced induction cars on track like the liquid to air units. If you can hit 212F on the street fast that would not help. However it would be excellent for those running N/A cars and probably great for those running thicker oil in cooler climates. I Dont know how I feel running two oil coolers/warmers though its just too much crap on this car for a street setup.



I really value your opinion obviously, I would have never been testing this without your threads. In honesty I wont run the car in winter anymore because its already a rust bucket after two years. But I think after this discussion I'd just run two oils going forward. IN winter for sub zero starts stick with 0w20. In summer track months go to 40w. 10w30 redline is a thick oil and at 245F oil temps, pressures go terminal.

The bigger issue is I dont think people who track these cars with FI monitor this at all. My setup is ultra conservative compared to most.

For sure I think people should be running two different oil viscosities based on temperatures/seasons. The two viscosity choices will be debated to death but trust your oil pressure gauge above all else if forced induction. I think NA guys have more leeway.