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Old 11-19-2019, 11:47 PM   #5195
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@peaches Good info thanks - was that on Nov 17th? Looks like ambient temp was pretty low that day, ~57F?

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So... Sebring. The alarm on the oil temp gauge kept going off in the first session, had to turn the heater on. Logged data from the ECU on the second session and saw a max of 246 with the heater on. Left the heater on the rest of the day and didn't have an issue (the ECU didn't reduce power due to high oil temps).

Going to Road Atlanta in a couple of weeks, will do some logging there as well.
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Old 11-20-2019, 08:24 AM   #5196
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@peaches Good info thanks - was that on Nov 17th? Looks like ambient temp was pretty low that day, ~57F?
Yes, temps were low (60 or under). I ordered a trac box (replacement for beastronix) with an option to turn the fans on, that should be a better option than using the heater.
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Old 11-20-2019, 09:13 PM   #5197
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I don't know if the rad fans will do anything when you're hitting track speeds but I think it would help in the paddock for cool down. My concern is that with ambient temps ~60F and you're hitting ~240F and have to turn the heater on, that when its 90F ambient you're going to see 270F which is the same issue I have with the dual cooler.

Someone tried to explain thermal dynamics to me at one point but too far out of my realm. From what I've observed in a practical sense there is a direct correlation between a change in ambient temp and a change in oil temp when you're running at full tilt with the dual cooler.

As far as the hood vents go I was reading one of Varus threads on their implementation and they did not observe a decrease in engine temp, the real advantage was some external engine components such as coils were at lower temps which might lead to longer life, and reduced hood flutter. I would think decreased heatsoak as well but I always prop my hood after a session. Ref: https://www.ft86club.com/forums/show...8&postcount=11


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Yes, temps were low (60 or under). I ordered a trac box (replacement for beastronix) with an option to turn the fans on, that should be a better option than using the heater.
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Old 11-22-2019, 01:00 AM   #5198
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I would definitely retune, if you were going catted, maybe you could get away with it, but with the additional airflow a catless EL is going to enable, I feel a tune is necessary to actually reap any major benefits out of it. Personally, Iím also of the mindset to want my tune to be 100% in line with whatís going on with my car, because with boost, any margin of error just doesnít seem with the worth it.
digging up the past i know, but im still toying with buying that el catless header. i realise i wont fully maximize power gains without redyno. but will it be BAD for my engine, throw off the air/fuel etc, if i replace the oe header with a catless el and dont re dyno.

i dont have the ecutek cable, and iirc, the tuner "sealed" my tune on my ecu, so no other tuner could open it and steal his tricks? is that right or am i out of my mind?
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Old 11-22-2019, 01:16 PM   #5199
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digging up the past i know, but im still toying with buying that el catless header. i realise i wont fully maximize power gains without redyno. but will it be BAD for my engine, throw off the air/fuel etc, if i replace the oe header with a catless el and dont re dyno.

i dont have the ecutek cable, and iirc, the tuner "sealed" my tune on my ecu, so no other tuner could open it and steal his tricks? is that right or am i out of my mind?
Your car will run lean and you risk engine damage. If you add a header, tune for it.
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Old 11-22-2019, 06:24 PM   #5200
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Your car will run lean and you risk engine damage. If you add a header, tune for it.
i knew that was going to be the answer, but i really didnt want it to be.
i guess ill pass on the headers for now, im the kinda guy that wants my tune to be in line 100% with my mods. something i might explore in the future is buying the cable and dongle and putting a delicious map on it. i really know nothing about that though. like i said, i dont think i even can bc the tune was "sealed" by the tuner during the dyno
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Old 11-22-2019, 07:16 PM   #5201
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i knew that was going to be the answer, but i really didnt want it to be.
i guess ill pass on the headers for now, im the kinda guy that wants my tune to be in line 100% with my mods. something i might explore in the future is buying the cable and dongle and putting a delicious map on it. i really know nothing about that though. like i said, i dont think i even can bc the tune was "sealed" by the tuner during the dyno
Have your tuner recalibrate the tune?
Or find a new tuner or etuner. They will have to start over building up their own tune for you. But then subsequent retunes from them will be quicker/easier/cheaper.
Almost every tuner locks the tune so only they can see it/change it. This prevents tuners and consumers from stealing their work. But you can always have a new tuner create you a new base map and they can then tune it.
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Old 11-23-2019, 12:23 PM   #5202
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Anybody here has had the car reach or go past 130MPH? I want to know if you experience vibration or shake. When my car reaches 130 at the track I feel a vibration in the seat (not the steering wheel). I have changed the wheels and tires as it's what everybody said was the problem and there was no change. I have upgraded motor mounts, tranny mount, cf drive shaft, diff brace, clutch, and flywheel.

Any ideas?
Since you only feel the vibration beyond 130 mph speed limit not rpm limit at various speeds, we need to check the drivetrain after transmission. And you have eliminated wheels and tires. We are left with drive shaft and differential. I would put my money on the CF drive shaft.
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Old 11-23-2019, 12:36 PM   #5203
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i knew that was going to be the answer, but i really didnt want it to be.
i guess ill pass on the headers for now, im the kinda guy that wants my tune to be in line 100% with my mods. something i might explore in the future is buying the cable and dongle and putting a delicious map on it. i really know nothing about that though. like i said, i dont think i even can bc the tune was "sealed" by the tuner during the dyno
I had the same itch for a catless ACE header for a long while. In the end, I decided it was not worth disturbing my perfectly working +100hp setup for an incremental power bump. I said to myself "just enjoy it, enough wrenching with this car"

Though, I must admit, I have replaced my old stock header with the improved 2017+ stock header last summer along with HKS dual-resonator (catless) front pipe. Without any change in tune, I definitely got some power increase at the high rpm. I am confident that the engine is happy (-ier) since I got a little mpg increase as well for normal driving. You have a 2017+ model, right? Otherwise, you can do the same.
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Old 12-03-2019, 11:16 AM   #5204
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No issues with a safe tune.

Stay away from the DW 65C. DW 300C is totally fine (and is what I use).

PM for the FF setup.
Follow up question for you sir. Which setup would result in less stress to the engine: 12 psi pulley on 93 fuel with a lowered redline (6.8-7k), or stock pulley with flex fuel? I have done a lot of research to understand the changes that would occur but at the end of the day I am not a tuner so I would like some education from an expert. From what I understand however, there is an increase in torque on E85 resulting from increases ignition advance. However I don't seem to fully understand the relationship between stress in the combustion chamber, boost pressure, ignition advance, and torque. I understand that higher torque results from more expansion force from combustion, so is it a direct relationship between stress on the system and measured torque? Here is a theoretical example: let's say that two identical FA20s are tuned to both produce 200 lb-ft of torque at 7000 rpm, one with E85 at 10 psi and one with 93 at 12 psi. Are these engines experiencing identical levels of stress (putting aside the differences in combustion temperature and possibility of knock)? Or is the engine with a higher boost pressure subjected to more stress purely because of the volume of air it's compressing? I also understand that the valve system will be subjected to higher stress from the higher boost pressure, but I am curious about the stress that would be delivered to the rods and developed into torque in this particular case.

The final question that I have is regarding tuning - can the ignition advance and other parameters be safely decreased to reduce the power output on an E85 tune?

If anyone else outside of Mike has some good knowledge of this subject feel free to chime in - I'm an engineer and should be able to grasp whatever you present pretty well so the more detailed of an answer that anyone can provide the better.
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Old 12-03-2019, 04:51 PM   #5205
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Follow up question for you sir. Which setup would result in less stress to the engine: 12 psi pulley on 93 fuel with a lowered redline (6.8-7k), or stock pulley with flex fuel? I have done a lot of research to understand the changes that would occur but at the end of the day I am not a tuner so I would like some education from an expert. From what I understand however, there is an increase in torque on E85 resulting from increases ignition advance. However I don't seem to fully understand the relationship between stress in the combustion chamber, boost pressure, ignition advance, and torque. I understand that higher torque results from more expansion force from combustion, so is it a direct relationship between stress on the system and measured torque? Here is a theoretical example: let's say that two identical FA20s are tuned to both produce 200 lb-ft of torque at 7000 rpm, one with E85 at 10 psi and one with 93 at 12 psi. Are these engines experiencing identical levels of stress (putting aside the differences in combustion temperature and possibility of knock)? Or is the engine with a higher boost pressure subjected to more stress purely because of the volume of air it's compressing? I also understand that the valve system will be subjected to higher stress from the higher boost pressure, but I am curious about the stress that would be delivered to the rods and developed into torque in this particular case.

The final question that I have is regarding tuning - can the ignition advance and other parameters be safely decreased to reduce the power output on an E85 tune?

If anyone else outside of Mike has some good knowledge of this subject feel free to chime in - I'm an engineer and should be able to grasp whatever you present pretty well so the more detailed of an answer that anyone can provide the better.

It depends on the impulse.

In the FA20's case, the E85 is easier, because the amount of **time** spent pushing the piston down during combustion is greater, rather than the amount of **force** against the piston. This is courtesy of the ignition timing advance, rather than exploding more gas with more air to get a bigger boom.

Another persoective: more timing advance allowed by ethanol allows you to harness more of the energy in the fuel used. You have the same energy density, because stoich hasn't changed, and your air intake hasnt changed. You are able to use more of it because you can advance timing without knocking. More boost = more fuel = bigger kaboom = more torque. However, because it's MORE boost, you (long story short) get LESS ignition timing, so while the boom is bigger, you are able to harness less of it.


Remember, engines don't deliver a constant level of torque like an electric motor, but rather, deliver pulses. These pulses are smoothed out by things like heavy pulleys, flywheels, clutches, transmissions, etc. E85 = longer pulse. More boost = stronger pulse. Net torque output = sum of the pulse, whether longer and/or stronger.


Hopefully that made sense. I can elaborate more. There's many other factors as well, but this is just a very surface level version.
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Old 12-03-2019, 05:49 PM   #5206
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It depends on the impulse.

In the FA20's case, the E85 is easier, because the amount of **time** spent pushing the piston down during combustion is greater, rather than the amount of **force** against the piston. This is courtesy of the ignition timing advance, rather than exploding more gas with more air to get a bigger boom.

Another persoective: more timing advance allowed by ethanol allows you to harness more of the energy in the fuel used. You have the same energy density, because stoich hasn't changed, and your air intake hasnt changed. You are able to use more of it because you can advance timing without knocking. More boost = more fuel = bigger kaboom = more torque. However, because it's MORE boost, you (long story short) get LESS ignition timing, so while the boom is bigger, you are able to harness less of it.


Remember, engines don't deliver a constant level of torque like an electric motor, but rather, deliver pulses. These pulses are smoothed out by things like heavy pulleys, flywheels, clutches, transmissions, etc. E85 = longer pulse. More boost = stronger pulse. Net torque output = sum of the pulse, whether longer and/or stronger.


Hopefully that made sense. I can elaborate more. There's many other factors as well, but this is just a very surface level version.
That was a really good way to brake it down.
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Old 12-03-2019, 06:36 PM   #5207
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It depends on the impulse.

In the FA20's case, the E85 is easier, because the amount of **time** spent pushing the piston down during combustion is greater, rather than the amount of **force** against the piston. This is courtesy of the ignition timing advance, rather than exploding more gas with more air to get a bigger boom.

Another persoective: more timing advance allowed by ethanol allows you to harness more of the energy in the fuel used. You have the same energy density, because stoich hasn't changed, and your air intake hasnt changed. You are able to use more of it because you can advance timing without knocking. More boost = more fuel = bigger kaboom = more torque. However, because it's MORE boost, you (long story short) get LESS ignition timing, so while the boom is bigger, you are able to harness less of it.


Remember, engines don't deliver a constant level of torque like an electric motor, but rather, deliver pulses. These pulses are smoothed out by things like heavy pulleys, flywheels, clutches, transmissions, etc. E85 = longer pulse. More boost = stronger pulse. Net torque output = sum of the pulse, whether longer and/or stronger.


Hopefully that made sense. I can elaborate more. There's many other factors as well, but this is just a very surface level version.
I know new tune is necessary for E85. But I am wondering if JR factory tune can take advantage of higher than 93 octane fuel by advancing the timing?
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Old 12-03-2019, 08:51 PM   #5208
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I know new tune is necessary for E85. But I am wondering if JR factory tune can take advantage of higher than 93 octane fuel by advancing the timing?
It does not.
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