Prospects of ditching drive-by-wire throttle

[M1K3]

Originally Posted by OmarGC

I have drive by cable throttle

You're running a 2J that does not count!

[Jesse36m3]

Originally Posted by executivekoala

I dont see why people get nervous to lose Traction and Stability control. Its not like the car is dangerous without them.

Because a lot of people on this forum have 1) never driven a standard before 2) first car 3) came from a fwd camry. These people fear they cannot control all of 200hp.

[arghx7]

it would be a lot easier and cheaper to try and change the throttle mapping on the stock ECU than to even attempt to run this engine with a throttle cable while still keeping the AVCS, direct injection, all that stuff. You would have to throw the entire control system out the window.

To those who say they like mechanical throttles... Ever have an idle air control solenoid valve fail? How about a mechanical fast idle valve? Ever had to adjust a throttle plate stopper screw or an air bypass screw? How about tuning idle air control duty cycle tables? Don't forget adjusting throttle and cruise control cables. Oh and how could I forget adjusting throttle position sensors? Or cleaning carboned up throttle valves because a mechanical throttle can't clean itself like an electronic one and you can feel the carbon buildup in the accelerator pedal.

vs... turn the key and go. no maintenance on electronic throttle. It's a sealed box. It either works or it doesn't (don't forget the built in redundant sensors in them), and because it's so safety-related they almost never fail. High profile cases aside, how many people do you know who have ever had any reliability problems with their electronic throttle system??? They have to work very very well from the factory for a long time or somebody could die.

Why not just swap in flathead engines with single barrel downdraft carbs??

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Turdinator

Learn to drive safely like people did for the 50 odd years before nannies were common place?

Losing cruise control on the other hand would annoy me.

EDIT: It is probably more than 50 years.

And people died way more often in car crashes during those 50 odd years.
Having said that I drove for 30 years without nannies and managed to survive but don't mind the nannies for my day to day commuting. What I do like is the ability to turn them off completely when I want to though. Wife had an early Saturn that had some of the first gen nannies that could not be turned off. Get 3 inches of snow and you were done!

[sato]

I don't like these drive-by-wire throttles, but the one in the twins is way more responsive than the one in my 2az-fe Camry... Still, voted mechanical. Everytime I jump in the seat of my friend's old GC8 and WRX, I'm left without words are the responsiveness of the good old mechanical throttles.

[fika84]

Originally Posted by arghx7

it would be a lot easier and cheaper to try and change the throttle mapping on the stock ECU than to even attempt to run this engine with a throttle cable while still keeping the AVCS, direct injection, all that stuff. You would have to throw the entire control system out the window.

To those who say they like mechanical throttles... Ever have an idle air control solenoid valve fail? How about a mechanical fast idle valve? Ever had to adjust a throttle plate stopper screw or an air bypass screw? How about tuning idle air control duty cycle tables? Don't forget adjusting throttle and cruise control cables. Oh and how could I forget adjusting throttle position sensors? Or cleaning carboned up throttle valves because a mechanical throttle can't clean itself like an electronic one and you can feel the carbon buildup in the accelerator pedal.

vs... turn the key and go. no maintenance on electronic throttle. It's a sealed box. It either works or it doesn't (don't forget the built in redundant sensors in them), and because it's so safety-related they almost never fail. High profile cases aside, how many people do you know who have ever had any reliability problems with their electronic throttle system??? They have to work very very well from the factory for a long time or somebody could die.

Why not just swap in flathead engines with single barrel downdraft carbs??

You have all valid points. For me, it's more of a feel thing. I felt more connected to the engine with a throttle cable. I think after a tune it will feel way better, but until then, there are times I wish it was a mechanical cable.

[Koa]

Originally Posted by arghx7

Why not just swap in flathead engines with single barrel downdraft carbs??

I appreciate and can see all of your points up until your very last one. Throttle response from Drive-by-Wire is a vastly different "feel" than mechanical cable setups. Flathead engines and single-barrel downdraft carbs are just plain outdated. I'm not trying to downgrade performance, which would require significant retooling of the throttle system and the other systems that are impacted by the switch (as you explained earlier in your post).

It's hard to argue datedness when feel and subjectivity comes into play. Safe to say most >feel< that the electronic throttle is sufficient or preferred (although this poll suggests otherwise- hard to tell, since the participants are almost guaranteed auto enthusiasts+). Some don't. I'm part of the latter. I am wholly invested in this platform and am ready to do whatever it takes to get it just right for me. Not for you or anyone else.

That being said, I think you're overexaggerating the maintenance of a mechanical cable throttle system once the thing is put in place and adjusted for subsystems. It's getting it there which will be the main headache. I've owned a stage II WRX for going on six years, not ONCE have I had to clean the throttle cable assembly. Others I'm sure can report the same.

--

sorry to only pick you out, I appreciate every response to this. It's laying groundwork for what is feasible and to be expected with the conversion.

[arghx7]

I'll say this. The final generation of throttle cable controlled engines were generally a lot better in terms of reliability and maintenance. The EJ205 WRX is included in that. Lots of 90s and 80s Japanese cars had all sorts of those cable throttle headaches though.

Sure, they feel different. I'm sure when old cars switched from throttle levers and manual spark advance levers (Model T) to distributors and accelerator pedals (flathead V8 vehicles) people said the same stuff. Then you get used to it.

I'm not trying to downgrade performance, which would require significant retooling of the throttle system

Toyota's first direct injected engine in the mid 1990s used an electronic throttle. I can't think of a single production direct injected engine that has ever been made without electronic throttle. It would be a very uphill climb to get a good driving direct injected engine working, and switching to PFI only would lower performance.

The problem is that mechanical throttles are basically reactive systems. They hopefully sense the movement of the throttle and the ECU can respond to that. All but the very earliest electronic throttle systems have torque-based controls. They coordinate the AVCS, injection timing, throttle plate, etc based on a torque request.

I just don't know how you'd get the engine to run smoothly in real world driving while still keeping all the performance features.

[Koa]

Originally Posted by arghx7

I'll say this. The final generation of throttle cable controlled engines were generally a lot better in terms of reliability and maintenance. The EJ205 WRX is included in that. Lots of 90s and 80s Japanese cars had all sorts of those cable throttle headaches though.

Sure, they feel different. I'm sure when old cars switched from throttle levers and manual spark advance levers (Model T) to distributors and accelerator pedals (flathead V8 vehicles) people said the same stuff. Then you get used to it.

Toyota's first direct injected engine in the mid 1990s used an electronic throttle. I can't think of a single production direct injected engine that has ever been made without electronic throttle. It would be a very uphill climb to get a good driving direct injected engine working, and switching to PFI only would lower performance.

The problem is that mechanical throttles are basically reactive systems. They hopefully sense the movement of the throttle and the ECU can respond to that. All but the very earliest electronic throttle systems have torque-based controls. They coordinate the AVCS, injection timing, throttle plate, etc based on a torque request.

I just don't know how you'd get the engine to run smoothly in real world driving while still keeping all the performance features.

You sir are a gent and a scholar. Didn't mean to come off crass in my earlier response, genuniely interested in this stuff.

Since it is looking like ECU tuning will be the go-to, I have purchased an OFT off a forum member here and it will be here this weekend. My sole complaint about this DBW throttle system is how the blips are handled. I hate the feeling of how they 'hang'. I blip to rev match and launch all the time, and drive 100+ miles a day M-F, varied on weekends. I'm punching that accelerator quite a bit and have determined this is significant to spend money on upgrading or modifying.

I have an elementary at best understanding of the idle and load profiles these cars have. Once I learn what's going on a little better and begin constructing the modified throttle tables I will come back here with some substantive, pointed questions. Thanks again all!

[Ultramaroon]

Originally Posted by sato

I don't like these drive-by-wire throttles, but the one in the twins is way more responsive than the one in my 2az-fe Camry... Still, voted mechanical. Everytime I jump in the seat of my friend's old GC8 and WRX, I'm left without words are the responsiveness of the good old mechanical throttles.

That one in particular sucks ballz. It's so laggy I have to sneak up on the desired throttle setting or end up in that damn hunting mode - too much - not enough - too much - not enough... Uggh!

My wife's car.

Originally Posted by Koa

Didn't mean to come off crass in my earlier response, genuniely interested in this stuff.

Anything but! Thank you for sticking it out there. I have a Tactrix device but haven't yet used it. I've been thinking lately OFT is more my speed.

[themadscientist]

I dislike throttle by wire on general principle. I want to be mechanically connected to the throttle. When I stomp that pedal, that's 100%, always. That being said, the BRZ was not intrusive. I hate that in the modern day, I have to buy a throttle controller just to wrest back control of what should be a simple butterfly valve.

[JP]

no need to buy a throttle controller, as stated earlier you can remap it in a flash tune.

[Caspeed]

Originally Posted by Koa

You sir are a gent and a scholar. Didn't mean to come off crass in my earlier response, genuniely interested in this stuff.

Since it is looking like ECU tuning will be the go-to, I have purchased an OFT off a forum member here and it will be here this weekend. My sole complaint about this DBW throttle system is how the blips are handled. I hate the feeling of how they 'hang'. I blip to rev match and launch all the time, and drive 100+ miles a day M-F, varied on weekends. I'm punching that accelerator quite a bit and have determined this is significant to spend money on upgrading or modifying.

I have an elementary at best understanding of the idle and load profiles these cars have. Once I learn what's going on a little better and begin constructing the modified throttle tables I will come back here with some substantive, pointed questions. Thanks again all!

I understand where you're coming from. I've been looking at how to improve the pedal placements to facilitate heel and toe. I brake with the ball of my foot and prefer to rock my foot to the side to blip the throttle. I will probably relocate the the accelerator pedal down and to the left to make it a more natural movement for me. The gap as stock is way too large, I know many people will say that they don't have an issue with this, but I do, so I will adjust it to work for me. One thing I've noticed is that when rocking my foot the accelerator pedal deflects to the right. I'm thinking that stiffening the pedal shaft might help with blipping the throttle. Theres nothing wrong with using old school concepts with modern technology.

I'm trying real hard to not just reach down and bend the pedal over to where I want it. Which has always worked before.

[themadscientist]

This might help.