another coilover question

[Tokay444]

Originally Posted by B-R-Z

I am on MPSS's, so are you suggesting I buy another set to stare at until I put them on?

Tires are consumables. So yes. Yes I am.

[Tokay444]

Originally Posted by Tokay444

Tires are consumables. So yes. Yes I am.

Put $1000 coilovers on a shock dyno, start adjusting the damping, then compare the rest of the dampers in the set, and you'll see why they're rubbish. Or you could have a look at the important parts of the dampers, and how their designed and constructed, and deduce the same.
For $1000 you may as well just pick the colour you like best.

[racecarshots]

ok only buy coilovers if I can get JRZ's got it.

[Tokay444]

Or Öhlins. Or Penskes. Or...

[racecarshots]

Somehow, I think there MIGHT be somewhere between stock and that lol.

[Tokay444]

Yes, but it isn't going to be cheaper than stock.

[gtslow]

Originally Posted by Tokay444

Or Öhlins. Or Penskes. Or...

MCS, Moton...

[gtslow]

Originally Posted by Cartman

Clearly you are missinformed

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showt...highlight=flex

Actually I don't think he is. If we took a stock car and ran it on the track the car w/ stock suspension and $850-$1000 tires the car with new performance would be faster than one with just coilovers. In fact, the ride quality and ground clearance might not be significantly sacrificed either.

[racecarshots]

Originally Posted by gtslow

Actually I don't think he is. If we took a stock car and ran it on the track the car w/ stock suspension and $850-$1000 tires the car with new performance would be faster than one with just coilovers. In fact, the ride quality and ground clearance might not be significantly sacrificed either.

Oh, totally.

[MeisterR]

I do feel like I have to at least defend the $1000 coilovers a bit.
Not all are rubbish, and I also feel that a brand name does not make a better coilovers.

In the past I have seen plenty of "brand name" suspension that do not function as stated.
These are not hear say, these are actual race car that came into our workshop that we put on the dyno and see.

While I don't think it is fair to name thing, but I have seen 3-way remote canister that adjust nothing, I have seen 3-way suspension with massive cross talk so we can never get it dial in on the dyno (it was missing a one way valve on the rebound adjuster), and I have seen suspension under recommendation of the manufacturer put so much gas pressure in that the damper effectively is an air spring.

These are not cheap suspension, those are all 3-way suspension from brand name companies, and some are names from the list above.

A damper is only going to work as well as it's setting.
You can have the most expensive technological advanced suspension in the world, but if it's setting is incorrect, it will easily to get out performed by the $1000 coilovers that has it's setting right.

Originally Posted by Tokay444

Put $1000 coilovers on a shock dyno, start adjusting the damping, then compare the rest of the dampers in the set, and you'll see why they're rubbish. Or you could have a look at the important parts of the dampers, and how their designed and constructed, and deduce the same.
For $1000 you may as well just pick the colour you like best.

We do, and we have seen none of the problem you mention.
Damping do deviate, minor in the grand scheme of things.
I would say about 5% at most on full hard, which is what we normally see so it isn't huge.



As far as internal goes, our ZetaCRD uses a high flow piston.
It will be similar to what you will find from a Bilstein rally piston, huge port with not a lot of control, but extremely high flow.
What that mean the control are provide via the shims assembly, and that is what we engineer in house to make the the damper provide the damping force that we want to see.

They aren't as good as a much more expensive CNC piston with smaller port that can provide much better control.
But it does not mean that cheaper suspension do not function or perform.
I think that is a bad assumption to have when there are engineers working hard to achieve both performance and affordable price.

Originally Posted by Tokay444

You will get more performance out of $1000 worth of tires than $1000 worth of coilovers.

While you can't prove that in a very scientific experiment, we did done a recent project just for fun with The RingBanana.
This is a old MK1 Miata with 90hp, running the Nurburgring.

Base Car with old road tyres as purchased: 9:21
Base Car with Kumho V70A Semi-Slick: 8:59 (- 22 seconds)
Base Car with MeisterR Zeta-R coilovers, new alignment, an old road tyres (as used in the base lap): 8:54 (- 27 seconds)

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UpFi0dfRnUM"]MX-5 Coilovers RingTested! (8:54.3 - Nürburgring Nordschleife BTG) - YouTube[/ame]


While not very scientfiic, this certainly show that suspension can make a huge impact to the overall performance of a car, even if it only cost $1000.

Jerrick

[Tokay444]

Meister, at what piston speed do you start to cavitate/boil the area behind the piston, and what do you do to prevent this phenomenon?

[gtslow]

Originally Posted by MeisterR

I do feel like I have to at least defend the $1000 coilovers a bit.
Not all are rubbish, and I also feel that a brand name does not make a better coilovers.

In the past I have seen plenty of "brand name" suspension that do not function as stated.
These are not hear say, these are actual race car that came into our workshop that we put on the dyno and see.

While I don't think it is fair to name thing, but I have seen 3-way remote canister that adjust nothing, I have seen 3-way suspension with massive cross talk so we can never get it dial in on the dyno (it was missing a one way valve on the rebound adjuster), and I have seen suspension under recommendation of the manufacturer put so much gas pressure in that the damper effectively is an air spring.

These are not cheap suspension, those are all 3-way suspension from brand name companies, and some are names from the list above.

A damper is only going to work as well as it's setting.
You can have the most expensive technological advanced suspension in the world, but if it's setting is incorrect, it will easily to get out performed by the $1000 coilovers that has it's setting right.



We do, and we have seen none of the problem you mention.
Damping do deviate, minor in the grand scheme of things.
I would say about 5% at most on full hard, which is what we normally see so it isn't huge.



As far as internal goes, our ZetaCRD uses a high flow piston.
It will be similar to what you will find from a Bilstein rally piston, huge port with not a lot of control, but extremely high flow.
What that mean the control are provide via the shims assembly, and that is what we engineer in house to make the the damper provide the damping force that we want to see.

They aren't as good as a much more expensive CNC piston with smaller port that can provide much better control.
But it does not mean that cheaper suspension do not function or perform.
I think that is a bad assumption to have when there are engineers working hard to achieve both performance and affordable price.



While you can't prove that in a very scientific experiment, we did done a recent project just for fun with The RingBanana.
This is a old MK1 Miata with 90hp, running the Nurburgring.

Base Car with old road tyres as purchased: 9:21
Base Car with Kumho V70A Semi-Slick: 8:59 (- 22 seconds)
Base Car with MeisterR Zeta-R coilovers, new alignment, an old road tyres (as used in the base lap): 8:54 (- 27 seconds)

While not very scientfiic, this certainly show that suspension can make a huge impact to the overall performance of a car, even if it only cost $1000.

Jerrick

I'm willing to let my mind be changed but unfortunately I can't take a vendors word for it considering that I've been burnt on cheap coilovers in the past. I'm glad to see you use radial bearings in your product so at least you shouldn't get coil bind.

I too can post a slightly unscientific video. This time with GT86's as the starring car:

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ca3KmMZ577o"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ca3KmMZ577o[/ame]

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by MeisterR

While you can't prove that in a very scientific experiment, we did done a recent project just for fun with The RingBanana.
This is a old MK1 Miata with 90hp, running the Nurburgring.

Base Car with old road tyres as purchased: 9:21
Base Car with Kumho V70A Semi-Slick: 8:59 (- 22 seconds)
Base Car with MeisterR Zeta-R coilovers, new alignment, an old road tyres (as used in the base lap): 8:54 (- 27 seconds)

While not very scientfiic, this certainly show that suspension can make a huge impact to the overall performance of a car, even if it only cost $1000.

Jerrick

Not only is that a not scientific video, I'd argue it's totally disingenuous without knowing the alignment on the first lap. It has such a huge impact on balance and driver confidence, especially in a Miata, given the information they posted, assuming at best a street alignment that wasn't totally borked with ~-1.5 degrees camber all around I would happily bet that well over half the improvement between first and third laps were due to the alignment.

Flipped through their videos, doesn't appear like it was mentioned anywhere what they were at before. The car could have had positive camber and toe-in all four corners for all we know screwing cornering and straightline in a car already straightline challenged.

I don't care what coilovers you are comparing, an alignment change that extreme (they went up to -3F/-2.25R) and saying it's all, or even mostly, from the coilovers is bollocks.

Edit:
Don't mean to trash MeisterR, just that you cannot downplay the role alignment has in car performance, and they went for a BIG change.

Originally Posted by gtslow

I'm glad to see you use radial bearings in your product so at least you shouldn't get coil bind.

Coil bind is when the spring is fully compressed and the spring goes to a solid metal on metal contact. The measurement is also referred to as solid height or block height and is driven by spring design and manufacturing processes.

I don't know if a specific term exists for what the radial bearing solves, this forum post from a decade ago calls it 'ratcheting' but googling that doesn't give me much info:

http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=162484

[Cartman]

Originally Posted by gtslow

Actually I don't think he is. If we took a stock car and ran it on the track the car w/ stock suspension and $850-$1000 tires the car with new performance would be faster than one with just coilovers. In fact, the ride quality and ground clearance might not be significantly sacrificed either.

If you run a car with coilovers on OEM primacy vs a stock car on Hankook TD, of course its going to be slower... but that is a stupid comparison