High Revv NA Setup?

[dunphyjp]

ok so i know that 90% of the power junkies out there will be all about turbo and supercharging our beautiful cars. but has anyone actually considered the other option? we have a square engine which is an amazing thing for high revving setups!

is anyone out there at all interested in going for a high revving NA setup? little valvetrain work, maybe just some valve springs, tune, exhaust and intake? see where that puts us, and hell maybe it'll be able to make power up to 9000rpms! that'd be an amazing thing! frankly if i was able to squeeze 260hp out of a 2.0L flat 4 that gets 34mpg then i'd say it's already a 1 up on the RX8 :P

call me optimistic but i think that keeping at least one of our cars in the fully done out NA setup would really be something to see! pretty sure that if need be porting and polishing of these engines would be a great way to get more out of the NA setup.

i know plenty of people out there have already gotten great numbers out of their turbo kits, which is awesome! i'd just like to see what the NA setup can do too

[ScottDRFT]

Originally Posted by dunphyjp

ok so i know that 90% of the power junkies out there will be all about turbo and supercharging our beautiful cars. but has anyone actually considered the other option? we have a square engine which is an amazing thing for high revving setups!

is anyone out there at all interested in going for a high revving NA setup? little valvetrain work, maybe just some valve springs, tune, exhaust and intake? see where that puts us, and hell maybe it'll be able to make power up to 9000rpms! that'd be an amazing thing! frankly if i was able to squeeze 260hp out of a 2.0L flat 4 that gets 34mpg then i'd say it's already a 1 up on the RX8 :P

call me optimistic but i think that keeping at least one of our cars in the fully done out NA setup would really be something to see! pretty sure that if need be porting and polishing of these engines would be a great way to get more out of the NA setup.

i know plenty of people out there have already gotten great numbers out of their turbo kits, which is awesome! i'd just like to see what the NA setup can do too

I want to keep this car to stay NA as well. I love how the power feels very direct and linear. I think that this route makes for a better balanced tune. Mechanical tuning FTW! =D

[dunphyjp]

Originally Posted by ScottDRFT

I want to keep this car to stay NA as well. I love how the power feels very direct and linear. I think that this route makes for a better balanced tune. Mechanical tuning FTW! =D

that's what i'm talkin bout! granted a centrifugal supercharger will just amplify the stock power curve, but i still say NA is going to be the way to go for the best possible response, especially for track days, quick autox, and back road bombing.

my personal belief after owning turbo and NA cars is that while something like a WRX will have a lot of usable power, placing a WRX against an all done up RX8 or Integra Type-R, it's hard to match the response of an NA engine and immediate inputs of a NA setup. easy predictable power

[Bonburner]

how do you plan on getting 9k rpm AND 34 mpg?

[Tradewind]

Thats what the factory gave you - high rev NA, you could extend it further but extra rpms are very destructive to an engine not built for it. Turn it into an F1 style engine for mega rpm tho would be SWEET - $40k for the engine built out of exclusivarium metals with electrohydraulic valve actuators (no cams).

[Akired86]

If you're going the NA route it would likely be best if you can find aftermarket company that offers NA performance part for example, intake, header, and camshafts, rather than buying individual part and hoping they make a difference. Especially in this engine with relatively high volumetric efficiency and fairly optimized components already included, it might be hard to see any actual gains otherwise.

[Bonburner]

Originally Posted by Tradewind

Thats what the factory gave you - high rev NA, you could extend it further but extra rpms are very destructive to an engine not built for it. Turn it into an F1 style engine for mega rpm tho would be SWEET - $40k for the engine built out of exclusivarium metals with electrohydraulic valve actuators (no cams).

people have tested this engine up to 9k rpms with no problems .. i'd have some trouble digging around for the thread that talked about this though .. :/
don't remember which group did it

[ScottDRFT]

Originally Posted by Bonburner

people have tested this engine up to 9k rpms with no problems .. i'd have some trouble digging around for the thread that talked about this though .. :/
don't remember which group did it

Yeah I saw this somewhere also, I'm sure it could rev up to 9K but I think it's capped at 7400 for that sake of preserving engine life.

[Mitch]

Forces increase exponentially with speed. The higher you want to go, the more you spend replacing the moving components. What you want to build is essentially a race engine, and the lifespan of race engines is measured in hours, rather than miles. Forced induction is a way of increasing output from combustion with linear inreases in stress. Not telling you which way to go, but there are FI routes that achieve what you want more economically and reliably, eg twins crew superchargers.

[d1ck]

Originally Posted by Mitch

Forces increase exponentially with speed. The higher you want to go, the more you spend replacing the moving components. What you want to build is essentially a race engine, and the lifespan of race engines is measured in hours, rather than miles. Forced induction is a way of increasing output from combustion with linear inreases in stress. Not telling you which way to go, but there are FI routes that achieve what you want more economically and reliably, eg twins crew superchargers.

Why don't you stop by Honda-Tech and tell them that everyone running a 9k RPM engine is a "race" engine? There are plenty of B series, D series, F Series, and H series engines running this high and doing it reliably every day.

To the OP:
I agree that this could be a great rev happy engine with cams, valve springs & retainers, and maybe a port job depending on how good the stock heads flow.

[TSLRich]

Originally Posted by d1ck

Why don't you stop by Honda-Tech and tell them that everyone running a 9k RPM engine is a "race" engine? There are plenty of B series, D series, F Series, and H series engines running this high and doing it reliably every day.

To the OP:
I agree that this could be a great rev happy engine with cams, valve springs & retainers, and maybe a port job depending on how good the stock heads flow.

sorry dude... but I kind of agree with Mitch. Yes there are plenty of Honda motors hitting 9K and beyond, but those motors have all been on the market for a minimum of 5 years and in some cases as many as 20. There have been plenty of motors popped and lessons learned a long the way about what can and can't be done... just because it can be done in a Honda motor doesn't mean the boxer 4 will like the same things.

To the OP, I think it is an interesting idea... I'm sure there will be people that explore the option... it is really going to depend on how well the aftermarket jumps on board with this platform though, because an NA build requires some very dedicated companies making some more focused parts that the high HP chasing crowd might not be willing to pay for if they are just going for bang 4 buck. You're going to need valve-train components, cams, head work, tuning (ecutek seems to be at the for-front right now)

[industrial]

I'm interested in going this route eventually. I'm probably going to look at increasing displacement as well as revving higher to make power.

[Coheed]

Well, at 9k you are right around 5000fpm piston speeds. That is not that bad for a 86mm piston. Not a lot of weight, and factory cars have been doing it for years without any failures at all. Think S2000.

9k rpm is not difficult, nor is it unreliable. Putting springs/retainers, cams, headwork, and decent bolt-ons with a tune on E85 and people will be hitting 250+whp.

You can get 34mpg with a high rev setup without issues as well. The cams are going to impact the mileage depending on the profile chosen and how the advance/retard on the cam timing is handled by the ECU. But it won't be that hard. Revving high with small engines is a great way to improve output. Responsive high rev engines are really fun, and stays true to the spirit of the GT86.

I don't think you can go wrong with whichever route you choose, as long as you actually get the car lol.

[FT-86GOD]

Would it be fair to assume getting any serious power gains reliably long term out of the 86 N/A is going to set u back a similar $$$ to that of a decent turbo kit anyway?