Are you faster with traction control on or off?

[maj75]

Old fart rant coming:

It is a miracle that us old farts survived driving all these years without computers to protect us from ourselves... Our whole society has become so risk adverse that is is rediculous. WE SURVIVED: without bike helmets, ergonomicly correct playgrounds, child safety seats, no rear seat belts, batting helmets, wooden bats, arranged "play dates", 3 wheel ATVs, dirt bikes, climbing trees, and generally doing stupid stuff with gunpowder, BB guns and rifles... Computers, cellphones, fax machines, the Internet, Cable TV, Google and Apple.

Every kid didn't get a trophy, there were winners and losers. If you didn't do your work in school, you failed the class and if you failed enough classes, you didn't get passed on to the next grade...

And ESC.

ESC is government mandated, which should tell you something about whether it will allow you to have fun with the car. Our government generally HATES cars, fast driving, or having any fun in your car. This isn't a partisan attack, but a Washington attack. Most of these politicians don't even drive themselves anymore. They are not car enthusiasts. Witness gas mileage requirements, fuel mileage penalties, tax breaks for hybrids, etc.

I leave ESC engaged on the street, because I never drive like an ass on the street. On the track, it upsets the car and interferes with my feel for what the car is doing and is capable of. What ESC allows the novice to do on the track is overdrive the car but not kill himself. That's not the way to learn the car's limits. We old guys, who didn't have the money to wad up their cars, learned to work our way responsibly towards the limits of what the car could do. We listened to what the tires were telling us. It takes time and patience. For the elite of us, (myself not included) it meant acceptance of a higher level of risk, personal risk as well as the risk to the car to be the fastest.

At the track events I attend, PCA, POC and Chin, the fastest cars don't have ESC. It isn't necessary to drive fast. It can't keep a driver from getting in over his head and crashing, if he is really intent. The only thing that can totally prevent that, is staying on the couch.

[cfusionpm]

Originally Posted by Luis_GT

No wonder you flipped a tC... you got all you're skills from watching Fast and Furious

I'm sure your masterful skill would have definitely been able to recover a slide on a narrow oil slicked wet curve in the rain on bald tires.

[Luis_GT]

Originally Posted by cfusionpm

I'm sure your masterful skill would have definitely been able to recover a slide on a narrow oil slicked wet curve in the rain on bald tires.

I wouldn't have lost control in the first place

Edit: And in that situation, TC wouldn't have saved you

[DylanFRS]

I don't think anyone is arguing about whether or not to use VSC or TC on the track.

Using the argument of that TC is pointless because people drove cars 20 years ago that didn't have it is not a valid argument. Just because people drove around their Model Ts without seat belts doesn't mean that we should bother wearing our seatbelts today.

The thing is, there are two situations on public roads with the TC.

1. You are not driving at the limit, in which case it doesn't matter if you have TC on.

2. You are driving at the limit, in which case the VSC is a nice back-up for IF something happens.

You never know what is going to happen on the road on any given day, which is why you wear your seat belt (I hope) every single time you get in the car. We don't get to choose when unfortunate events occur.

Originally Posted by maj75

Old fart rant coming:

It is a miracle that us old farts survived driving all these years without computers to protect us from ourselves... Our whole society has become so risk adverse that is is rediculous. WE SURVIVED: without bike helmets, ergonomicly correct playgrounds, child safety seats, no rear seat belts, batting helmets, wooden bats, arranged "play dates", 3 wheel ATVs, dirt bikes, climbing trees, and generally doing stupid stuff with gunpowder, BB guns and rifles... Computers, cellphones, fax machines, the Internet, Cable TV, Google and Apple.

Every kid didn't get a trophy, there were winners and losers. If you didn't do your work in school, you failed the class and if you failed enough classes, you didn't get passed on to the next grade...

And ESC.

ESC is government mandated, which should tell you something about whether it will allow you to have fun with the car. Our government generally HATES cars, fast driving, or having any fun in your car. This isn't a partisan attack, but a Washington attack. Most of these politicians don't even drive themselves anymore. They are not car enthusiasts. Witness gas mileage requirements, fuel mileage penalties, tax breaks for hybrids, etc.

I leave ESC engaged on the street, because I never drive like an ass on the street. On the track, it upsets the car and interferes with my feel for what the car is doing and is capable of. What ESC allows the novice to do on the track is overdrive the car but not kill himself. That's not the way to learn the car's limits. We old guys, who didn't have the money to wad up their cars, learned to work our way responsibly towards the limits of what the car could do. We listened to what the tires were telling us. It takes time and patience. For the elite of us, (myself not included) it meant acceptance of a higher level of risk, personal risk as well as the risk to the car to be the fastest.

At the track events I attend, PCA, POC and Chin, the fastest cars don't have ESC. It isn't necessary to drive fast. It can't keep a driver from getting in over his head and crashing, if he is really intent. The only thing that can totally prevent that, is staying on the couch.

[maj75]

Originally Posted by DylanFRS

I don't think anyone is arguing about whether or not to use VSC or TC on the track.

I'm sorry, but exactly how are you faster on the street with traction control off? I would have hoped this was about the track because if anybody is driving faster on the street without ESC they are an idiot and this would be an idiotic topic. Streets are speed limited. Having ESC doesn't waive speed limits. Since almost all speed limits are set well below what the road can safely handle, why have a discussion that's about whether you can drive the speed limit with TC on or off. Speed limits are the max speed, conditions may require slower speeds.

You can plan for "unfortunate events." It's called defensive driving. Ride a motorcycle as long as I have and you will understand what I mean. In an urban setting, with heavy freeway traffic, you assume everyone around you is trying to kill you, you always have a plan, and you are anticipating something bad happening. It is no guarantee, but it will keep you alive a lot longer than assuming other drivers will do what they are supposed to. Work the same in a car, only your chances of injury are far less if something bad does happen.

[cfusionpm]

Originally Posted by Luis_GT

I wouldn't have lost control in the first place

Edit: And in that situation, TC wouldn't have saved you

I don't think you really understand what the roads are like here. My whole family is from Minnesota, and I would much rather drive through snow than a sudden downpour in San Diego. Because we only get a handful of days of rain the entire year (sometimes going 6 months or more without a drop). What that means is 6 months of oil and other fluids built up on the roads, especially freeways and other heavily traveled roads; roads that could see 100,000 cars travel over it each day.

When rain comes, it rarely comes down heavy. Which means rather than washing away all those fluids (like most places with consistent heavy rain), it will cause the fluids to puddle and make extremely unsafe slick areas that you can't see or predict. It's similar to "black ice," something that causes lots of accidents in extremely cold places.

A TC system could have sensed the low grip and applied proportional amounts of braking to the inside and outside wheels as soon as the littlest slip was detected. Maybe 15% to outside wheels, 5% to insides, etc. That would slow the car, inhibit spin or rotation, and aide in regaining traction in the slipping wheels. But as an engineering student, you knew that already, right?

[Luis_GT]

Originally Posted by cfusionpm

I don't think you really understand what the roads are like here. My whole family is from Minnesota, and I would much rather drive through snow than a sudden downpour in San Diego. Because we only get a handful of days of rain the entire year (sometimes going 6 months or more without a drop). What that means is 6 months of oil and other fluids built up on the roads, especially freeways and other heavily traveled roads; roads that could see 100,000 cars travel over it each day.

When rain comes, it rarely comes down heavy. Which means rather than washing away all those fluids (like most places with consistent heavy rain), it will cause the fluids to puddle and make extremely unsafe slick areas that you can't see or predict. It's similar to "black ice," something that causes lots of accidents in extremely cold places.

A TC system could have sensed the low grip and applied proportional amounts of braking to the inside and outside wheels as soon as the littlest slip was detected. Maybe 15% to outside wheels, 5% to insides, etc. That would slow the car, inhibit spin or rotation, and aide in regaining traction in the slipping wheels. But as an engineering student, you knew that already, right?

Sadly, you missed physics, Bald tires, plus oil, plus rain, equals really low coefficient of friction, the moment that friction is lost, no TC system will work, especially at the speed you where most likely going on that ramp, as this is a scenario similar to hydroplaning.

Call me when TC activates during a hydroplaning scenario, where braking makes things worse and see what happens.

but like you said, I'm just an engineer, what do I know

[The_Societan]

Originally Posted by cfusionpm

Long sweeping freeway transition curve, maybe ~45 mph. The entry is downhill and I usually just coast through it with no gas until after the apex. This was slower than I usually take that corner, but I guess not slow enough. It had just rained that morning (and was still raining) after several months of no rain. If you're familiar with those kinds of conditions, it turns the road into an ice rink since all the oil and other gunk on the road is lifted, but not washed away. As the back end slid out and onto wet grass, there was no saving it. If the slide was on flat ground it wouldn't have been a problem, but it sloped about 30º downhill. As I slowed near the bottom, wheels dug in and 180'd onto the roof. There were about 330 other accidents that day alone just in San Diego; the tow truck said he passed half a dozen just in the small strip of road he took to get to me. If I had just tapped the brakes instead of trying to coast through the corner, I'd still have my tC.

I live in the Cincinnati/Northern Kentucky area, and I have heard people sometimes complain about how many drivers around here turn into old ladies behind the wheel if there's even the slightest amount of snow on the roads. Usually the criticism is from guys who drive heavy trucks with 4WD, so they're used to having good traction pretty much anywhere. They don't seem to realize that most other vehicles on the road are less forgiving when it comes to traction in wet conditions, and simply think the other drivers are being overly cautious, and they fly past you 10 mph over the limit in 6 inches of snow.

The point you made about driving right after the first rainfall in months made me think of this. A lot of drivers don't realize this fact about how easily the conditions can go from good to bad in no time flat. And as you stated, that's when accidents pile up. I've seen it happen, too.

As for myself, I've been driving the FR-S for about 4 months and have yet to fully push it to its limits(I like that, the room for improvement ). I like knowing that the VSC can react more quickly than I ever could in the event of wheel slippage. I have turned it off several times, but I guess I'm not really pushing the car too hard because it still seems like I really have to try to get the rear tires to lose grip in a corner. But this is street driving, so that's a good thing, right? At a racetrack I am sure it would be a different matter.

Besides, I've been driving for over 20 years. The days of being careless and irresponsible behind the wheel of a car should be behind me. I hope!

Now that being said, I am anxious to find out how this car handles in winter driving conditions. Or should I say nervous...

[cfusionpm]

Originally Posted by Luis_GT

Sadly, you missed physics, Bald tires, plus oil, plus rain, equals really low coefficient of friction, the moment that friction is lost, no TC system will work, especially at the speed you where most likely going on that ramp, as this is a scenario similar to hydroplaning.

Call me when TC activates during a hydroplaning scenario, where braking makes things worse and see what happens.

but like you said, I'm just an engineer, what do I know

If only one wheel slips, the others can still be slowed to maintain stability. But you already said there's no need to individually brake single wheels (something impossible to do from driver input alone). I guess the designers of the GTR's computer controlled drive system got it all wrong. They don't need any of that. :/

[DylanFRS]

Originally Posted by maj75

I'm sorry, but exactly how are you faster on the street with traction control off? I would have hoped this was about the track because if anybody is driving faster on the street without ESC they are an idiot and this would be an idiotic topic. Streets are speed limited. Having ESC doesn't waive speed limits. Since almost all speed limits are set well below what the road can safely handle, why have a discussion that's about whether you can drive the speed limit with TC on or off. Speed limits are the max speed, conditions may require slower speeds.

You can plan for "unfortunate events." It's called defensive driving. Ride a motorcycle as long as I have and you will understand what I mean. In an urban setting, with heavy freeway traffic, you assume everyone around you is trying to kill you, you always have a plan, and you are anticipating something bad happening. It is no guarantee, but it will keep you alive a lot longer than assuming other drivers will do what they are supposed to. Work the same in a car, only your chances of injury are far less if something bad does happen.

Not sure if you are directing this at me since every post I have in here so far agrees with everything you just said...

The thing you quoted me on a specifically said "faster on the track" with no TC/VSC.

[Luis_GT]

Originally Posted by cfusionpm

If only one wheel slips, the others can still be slowed to maintain stability. But you already said there's no need to individually brake single wheels (something impossible to do from driver input alone). I guess the designers of the GTR's computer controlled drive system got it all wrong. They don't need any of that. :/

Guess what... GTR's are still being crashed regardless.

[njccmd2002]

back in da dayz there was none of this crap. Traction control? bah! that did not exist.

So now a days we drive with all this nannies, because they exist. next thing you know we'll have automatic wipers in the toilets, and people wont be able to go without.

what a shame...

[Luis_GT]

Originally Posted by njccmd2002

back in da dayz there was none of this crap. Traction control? bah! that did not exist.

So now a days we drive with all this nannies, because they exist. next thing you know we'll have automatic wipers in the toilets, and people wont be able to go without.

what a shame...

[cfusionpm]

Originally Posted by Luis_GT

Guess what... GTR's are still being crashed regardless.

You can't fix everything with electronics, but to imply that one of the most advanced computer controlled all wheel drive systems in the world is no more stable than a traditional rear wheel drive car is not only ridiculous, but a complete detachment from reality. Especially since cars like the GTR put down equal or faster lap times than cars with more power and less weight, not to mention significantly more stable in imperfect conditions.

Obvious troll is obvious.