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BRZ First-Gen (2012+) -- General Topics All discussions about the first-gen Subaru BRZ coupe


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Old 05-22-2013, 05:52 PM   #29
mit_peid
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Originally Posted by Ganthrithor View Post
I don't think you can call a car a sports car based on absolute performance stats. Personally I think the term "sports car" should refer to a car that prioritizes involving the driver in the act of performance driving. I don't think they have to be high-performance cars-- although they certainly can be-- but I do think that big cars which abstract the driving experience through layers of computerization should be considered sports cars.

That's just me though-- I'm that guy who doesn't "get" GT-Rs, etc. When I think sports car I think Miata, Elise (and other small British roadsters), pre-GT car 911s, 914s, RX-7/8s, S2ks, the twins, etc: all cars that were reasonably small, sporty, and provided a pretty pure driving experience. Some of these were fast cars and some were slow cars, but they all focused primarily on driving as an activity as opposed to pure performance.

I don't really know what to call the Camaro. The obvious category is "muscle car" but from what I've seen / read they apparently handle quite well (albeit through the use of tons of clever electronics). I'd say its too big, heavy, and computerized to be a sports car, too unrefined to make a good GT car, and too refined to be a classical muscle car. Idk, it's a mystery.

Just my 0.02 filthy American dollars.
I'm just bored at work so I'll just continue with this discussion even though I don't think I have a real point nor do I necessarily disagree with you. Let's throw in two additional ambiguous/subjective terms we all like to use to try to add to the confusion. The twins are sometimes called "driver's cars" or "fun cars". Although I haven't sat it a new Camaro, it would be hard to say it isn't a "fun car" but might be an easier argument to say it isn't a "driver's car" due to bad visibility, numb feeling (making this up), heaviness, etc. But since the 3 terms aren't mutually exclusive, it really doesn't make a difference. See I told you I don't have a point. My only point maybe is that going a 1/4 mile really fast can be very fun (and for some never gets old) and even sporty by some estimates. Plus the exhaust note coming from a big displacement American muscle engine is pretty badass (one common trait of a sports car).

How can you say the GT-R's, Evo's, and STIs aren't sport cars? They're fun, sporty, and driver's cars (not to mention insanely fast). I feel one relevant analogy can be found in the camera world. Shooting in full auto mode with a full-frame DSLR like a 5D Mark III can yield you very good results even though you may not necessarily be a good photographer. A good photographer, like Ansel Adams, can get you just as nice of a photo with a fully manual film camera (using deep expertise & experience about lighting, white balance, composure, focal lengths, aperture, ISO, etc) where you have to manually make all the settings yourself. Your definition of sport cars is comparable to a full manual film camera, but when the best digital DSLRs can do a better job much faster and cheaper using computers. (I'm sure there are similar analogies in the music industry between digital vs vacuum-tube amps, etc.)

End points: Be happy that we're so lucky to have such a diverse selection of so many good cars to choose from. Don't worry about categorizing stuff. Don't hate on the guys picking the Camaros and Mustangs (although I would never in a million years get one of those - I would probably get a Corvette though).
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Old 05-22-2013, 07:34 PM   #30
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I have no idea what you're asking but I'll take a guess:

"Will upgrading the brake lines be useful for daily driving?"

The answer is probably not, you won't feel very much difference and if performance is an issue (your brakes are overheating, which is the only reason to "upgrade" because they have more than enough "stopping power" in stock configuration) then you're probably driving much too aggressively for public roads.

Even for track use I don't think the brake lines need to be upgraded, many people use a high temp brake fluid and pads for track use and swap between the OEM pads and track pads before hitting the track or heading home.

Unless you're in a high competition arena and you're running the car hard enough to need the upgrade, in which case you probably wouldn't be asking here.

Sorry. I typed too fast.

I mean upgrade to” stainless steel brake line”

Thanks a lot foryour response.
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Old 05-23-2013, 09:55 AM   #31
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I think the Camaro ZL1 is an amazing car, and probably a blast to drive. By those metrics I admit I call it a sports car. But I find it's bloated weight inexcusable. And it infuriates me to no end when automotive journalists say that since the car handles so well they don't mind that it weighs so much. That bothers me because the auto journalists aren't the ones PAYING FOR THE TIRES. And while that car is a blast around a track after a day you've probably worn off at least $500-600 worth of rubber.

Most sports car enthusiasts hate weight because it dulls a car's handling AND because high weight burns through consumables at the track, which makes having fun at the track a very expensive proposition. With today's technology you can fix the handling with suspension/electronic trickery, and new rubber compounds. But nothing has changed the fact that you're burning through that rubber (and brakes) at a very fast rate. You can't change the laws of thermodynamics and physics.
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Old 05-23-2013, 10:22 AM   #32
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*shrugs* I can't see shit out of my frs. Every new car is like that now.

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having sat in both a camaro and a brz, I see fine out of my brz. out of my previous vehicles, my pontiac sunfire, and my s10 extreme I couldn't see out of as well. But my jeep grand cherokees I saw EVERYTHING in. I'm not saying the camaro isnt a sports car, just that I didn't like sitting in it. Not the car for me
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Old 05-23-2013, 11:43 AM   #33
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Every new car has super thick A pillars, thanks to the absurd crash regulations that just get worse and worse.
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Old 05-23-2013, 03:05 PM   #34
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Every new car has super thick A pillars, thanks to the absurd crash regulations that just get worse and worse.
Yeah. Crash regs suck. Cars have all gotten so ugly and heavy :\

Even the BRZ would look better with a lower front end, but I guess they can't do that because things have to be a certain height and have a certain amount of crumple are between the top of the engine block and the hood?
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Old 05-23-2013, 03:28 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ganthrithor View Post
Yeah. Crash regs suck. Cars have all gotten so ugly and heavy :\

Even the BRZ would look better with a lower front end, but I guess they can't do that because things have to be a certain height and have a certain amount of crumple are between the top of the engine block and the hood?
As far as I know there is no "minimum" height but you are correct about the clearance space between the hood and engine.
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Old 05-23-2013, 03:35 PM   #36
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I just want to stab myself with a fork!

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Originally Posted by Ganthrithor View Post
I'm sorry, but the Camaro is not a sportscar. You don't get to call yourself that when you've passed the 2-ton mark :cripes:
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Originally Posted by Brzetto View Post
Yep it's a fat ass. 4120 lbs, yuck.
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You are absolutely right. I remember there was an article on the Camaro being a Dead coffin on wheel around the internet. I didn't believe it, and yes, I did ride in them. They have the worst Visibility from all the cars I have driven up to date!
Did you read the criteria of a Sports Car set forth in the article?

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So let's get this out of the way. The whole sports car thing began simply as a description of a car that could be used for competition on the track as well as for daily use on the road.
Like it or not the Camaro ZL! is one of the fastest factory stock track cars in the world. Check the VIR fast laps done by Car and Driver. Sure, it is a fat pig. But it is a very fast, great handling fat pig!

Big bore V8s are not my thing and I would rather have my car or an FR-S than a ZL1 but I still have a ton of respect for them. They are a great machine and can shame many of the worlds so called "Supercars".

]
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Old 05-23-2013, 03:45 PM   #37
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Yeah, I know. Chris Harris did a pretty good review:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IrhW6W7eZDI"]Ford Shelby GT500 v Chevrolet Camaro ZL1 : Street & Circuit - CHRIS HARRIS ON CARS - YouTube[/ame]
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Old 05-24-2013, 10:02 AM   #38
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My buddy bought a SS 1LE a few weeks ago and brought it over. Took me out for a ride in it and I was very shocked.

First time I had ever been in a (new body) Camaro and I was very impressed. I hate GM with a passion and it pains me to say this but, I think the Camaro has the Mustang beat hands down.

For such a large and heavy car I did not feel disconnected from the road in the Camaro like I did the Mustang. Handling was superb and the power/acceleration was scary.

I technically see the Camaro as a American Muscle-car.
I see the FR-S as a compact sports car.

Two different markets and both impressive in their own light.

EDIT (sorry he did not get a ZL1 he got a SS with the 1LE package)
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Old 05-24-2013, 11:48 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by RurumariGhost View Post
have you ever sat in a new camaro? you can't see s*** out of it, especially not behind you. No thanks
I lol'd.

I have the same feeling about the mustang (only for visibility) because there are HUGE blind spots. Right at the B and C pillar.

Car not for me but lots of people loves it.
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Old 05-24-2013, 01:36 PM   #40
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I think if a variant like this comes out- the model is likely in that gray sports car area. An old (one of many) metric for sports cars was it had to be missing a roof, it had to have low production numbers, it needed to lack amenities, and it had to be fast relative to it's competition.

But that ain't the gospel and I personally don't agree with it. I think the FRS and the Camaro are both very good sporty cars but neither are special enough to be honest-to-Buddha sports cars. Now NSX, 356, Viper, E-type, Corvette, S2000, F355, etc. I'd classify those as sports cars. It's like the judge ruling on what porn is "I'll know it when I see it."

As for the z28: that's a track car!
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Old 05-24-2013, 03:19 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by Rampage View Post
Like it or not the Camaro ZL! is one of the fastest factory stock track cars in the world. Check the VIR fast laps done by Car and Driver. Sure, it is a fat pig. But it is a very fast, great handling fat pig!

Big bore V8s are not my thing and I would rather have my car or an FR-S than a ZL1 but I still have a ton of respect for them. They are a great machine and can shame many of the worlds so called "Supercars".
I'm assuming you've driven a ZL1. Have you driven a regular SS? How does it handle compared to it?

I rented a 1SS in Maui and drove it on the Hana highway and I really disliked the way it handled
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Old 05-24-2013, 04:13 PM   #42
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I just want to stab myself with a fork!







Did you read the criteria of a Sports Car set forth in the article?



Like it or not the Camaro ZL! is one of the fastest factory stock track cars in the world. Check the VIR fast laps done by Car and Driver. Sure, it is a fat pig. But it is a very fast, great handling fat pig!

Big bore V8s are not my thing and I would rather have my car or an FR-S than a ZL1 but I still have a ton of respect for them. They are a great machine and can shame many of the worlds so called "Supercars".

]

I dump on the Camaro because it's a Government Motors car. I do business with companies who don't get their money from nefarious sources, not shady auto companies who instead of designing better cars get bailout money. Ford doesn't take handouts, they got their money the honest/right way. America is the greatest country but we have huge flaws that need to be immediately rectified.
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