FRS FA20 turbo vs FRS lsx/2jz

[Poodles]

Originally Posted by Mikem53

Lol... You just can't stand the fact that MORE people prefer and think the LSx is a better engine, especially for this application.. Get over it.. Toy fanboy..
Go count your bearing caps..

My opinion doesn't matter here. If anyone is the fan boy and resorting to petty attacks, it's you.

Originally Posted by Cross

Actually I said I do not know enough, I have tuned Supra's with aftermarket PCM's. (Yes I mean the last generation with the 2JZ) However I have not gotten seriously in depth but considering I praise the motor and all you have done is try to make assurtations that hold no fact.
Here is another quoted above about the tuning. I am sorry but it costs 100 for the credits to tune any LS Motor. So again why would anyone buy a motor to leave it stock? Since your going to be doing cam, heads, other modifications why wouldn't you tune it unless your incompetent?
How did you even think this was going to be a negative?

I'll agree that parts for the LS motors are uber cheap (heads, cam, headers, stroker kits, etc etc) but I tend to compare relatively stock motors. The LS series is the SBC of our time and has a downright massive aftermarket (shit, why even bother buying an engine when you could buy all the parts to build whatever you want). Pulling a truck motor just doesn't sound cost effective because of it.


You guys seem to think I dislike the LS motor, the facts are the opposite. It's a fantastic platform for reliable, streetable power. My "disposable income project" I have in mind is a C3 vette with aftermarket suspension, LS motor, and a T56. Now if only people would stop thinking their POS C3 is worth ludicrous money...

Originally Posted by Cross

So carry on with crying about someone pointing out you really don't know about the engines your talking about. The difference was I admitted that while I have tuned Supra's using AEM's I have not completely built one myself so while I like the 2JZ and it's abilities are well known I will not jump into a game of semantics with someone who clearly doesn't know much about the swap topic of either motor or LS motors for that matter.

I have about ten years experience with Supras in general, and had a lot of friends with 4th gen F-bodies, of which 2 required engine replacements under warranty for oil starvation/piston slap. I'll admit I don't know the full ins and outs of the swap in this car, but I doubt anyone here has done both swaps anyway.

Originally Posted by ZDan

And I've personally seen a 2500hp LS propel a Camaro to 263mph in the standing mile. That's 312hp/cylinder...

Never done standing mile stuff (I really should go out there as I'm relatively close, but anyway...), but I'm sure we've all seen Titan's Supra in action I don't think they've ever put that thing on the dyno publicly, at least that I can remember.

Originally Posted by ZDan

If you inferred that, too bad. I certainly never said or meant to imply anything like that!

Just seems to be the general trend in this thread... I think most people can agree that both motors are absolute monsters that routinely punch well above their weight in the car world.

Originally Posted by ZDan

??? What was nonsense: suggesting that the 2JZ's 7 2-bolt main bearings (just like in my old 240Z!) made it superior to the LS, due to having 2 more main bearings and 4 fewer bolts per main.

Because it simply does because of engine design. Much like a V6 is inherently a crap design from any standpoint besides packaging...

Originally Posted by ZDan

That was a perfectly meaningless point to make.

That's your opinion.

Originally Posted by ZDan

There are compromises to all engine designs. I6 has a long crankshaft that can give rise to torsional instabilities which can limit rpm, as Mikem pointed out.

Which is easily handled with a forged crank (the 2JZ has one stock) and an appropriately sized harmonic dampener. This isn't an RB motor...

Originally Posted by ZDan

I seriously doubt we'd see a lot of I8s in place of V8s even if there were no packaging concerns.

While it would be technically stronger, it doesn't have much of an advantage balance wise.

Originally Posted by ZDan

I6 is a good, workable configuration for a reliable performance engine, and so is V8.

Agreed (just wish we saw more flat-plane V8s here)

Originally Posted by ZDan

You might get the back of the engine closer to the firewall, but I would bet that the c.g. of the 2JZ will still be in front of either the FA's or the LS's. Heavier engine, further forward => more forward c.g.

Going to depend a lot on the placement of the turbo IMHO as a huge lump of cast iron could sway things. Not to mention the weight of the intercooler and piping (though this is really the same for any boosted motor).

Originally Posted by ZDan

I don't think that would bother them anything like as much as LS swaps into 911s!

I'm sure it pisses them off when people swap WRX motors into the 914 so it can possibly outrun the ugly...

Originally Posted by Cross

It add's 50 pounds you say, a complete swap adds 50 pounds so do you really think the 13BTT is really that light of a motor? You are letting it's size fool you because you don't seem to understand how it's built. These are not super light motor's in fact they are heavy.

Let me layout the weights:
13B Twin Turbo 410
LS3 6.2L V8 415lbs
LS7 7.0L V8 454lbs
2JZ Twin Turbo 580lbs
FA20 (Oddly enough finding this is proving to be a pain even those who have asked on the forums can't seem to get an answer)
FA20 and Turbo (Since kit's vary I will go with 78lbs for a complete turbo kit with intercooler up front)

As for weight changes on the RX7 FD Swaps here is actual weights from stock, ls and 2jz setups.
http://www.rx7club.com/other-engine-...eight-1063061/

Another common reason people go with a single modern BB turbo on the 2JZ and 13B. Well, of course it makes more power and it's cheaper than twins, but it's also a hell of a lot lighter trimming all the cast iron off the side of the motor. Typical of all headers though...

Originally Posted by ZDan

No, I know the stock 13b-tt is not a light motor. Stock, with stock twins, it's quite heavy for its size. Which is why when you replace it with a 6+ liter LS (like vs. like, keeping p/s and a/c, etc) you only add 50 lb.

My *point* was that even on an FD, where you aren't adding that much weight, and where the engine is mounted more aft relative to the FR-S, you still move the c.g. forward.

On the FR-S, where the delta in engine weights is greater, and where the engine is mounted further forward, you're not going to do any *better* than the swap into the FD as far as movement of c.g. is concerned. And on the FD, like vs. like, c.g. moves forward ~1.5% (like vs. like).



Yeah, I'm familiar with that thread. It is three different base cars with different mods and different "deletes" (A/C, p/s, ABS). Tough to get *true* like vs. like differences.

From my car and what I've been able to gather from other builds, LS swap into an FD, same level of equipment, adds *about* 50 lb. vs. stock and moves the weight forward *about* 1.5%. With other modifications and deletes/additions, you *can* make it lighter than stock with a more rearward c.g., but then you can make the rotary car a lot lighter and move its c.g. rearward as well...

Most people aren't going to be able to tell the difference in weight balance... but they will tell the difference in the torque and overall drivability of the car. Trying to find the magazine article where they pitted an LS swapped FD vs a modified rotary FD (they were about equal when it comes to HP and overall setup) and how the general consensus was that the LS swap didn't hurt the car at all.


If we could get anywhere near that success in this platform it would be great.

[C130NAV]

Originally Posted by C130NAV

Thats how she sits now only thing missing is a reluctor wheel and a tranny. Soon as I get a weight ill post it.

My scale doesnt go that far so I ordered a 500lb scale today. I figured I could use it for shipping things as well. It should be in next week then ill drop her on there take a few pics and post.

[Sideways&Smiling]

Why aren't there more LSx powered 240sx/Silvias, RX7s, S2000s, FRS/BRZ/GT86s, etc. competing & winning in time attack? I can only guess that the torquey power delivery causes traction problems if the weight balance isn't thrown off... I mean, they do compete and do well in drifting and drag racing, but where are they in circuit racing if they are so dominant and without weakness?

[Mikem53]

Originally Posted by Poodles

My opinion doesn't matter here. If anyone is the fan boy and resorting to petty attacks, it's you.

Here let me refresh your memory about who started the petty attacks...

Originally Posted by Poodles

. LS motors have their weaknesses like all over motors, sorry if I interrupted the LS motor circle jerk...

Not to mention your "hear say" stories from "friends" is all exgaggerrated rubbish.
There were a few cases of piston slap and oil use issues on early LS2 motors which was corrected under warranty.. These are facts, unlike your petty BS stories.

[Mikem53]

Originally Posted by Sideways&Smiling

Why aren't there more LSx powered 240sx/Silvias, RX7s, S2000s, FRS/BRZ/GT86s, etc. competing & winning in time attack? I can only guess that the torquey power delivery causes traction problems if the weight balance isn't thrown off... I mean, they do compete and do well in drifting and drag racing, but where are they in circuit racing if they are so dominant and without weakness?

What do you expect when you put an engine with that kind of power in a chassis without enough mechanical grip to handle the TQ?
That's why they come from the factory with small displacement low TQ motors.. To match the chassis capabilities.. The engine isn't the problem here.. It's getting the power to the ground..

[OmarGC]

Best thing about LS's: once you blow em up, you can go find another bare block for stupid cheap.

Here's my thing. I love LSx engines... cheap, reliable, and great power. Will handle what the average Joe will ever throw at it forever. If I'm building a competition car and engine choices are between 2jz and a newer LS... Blown LS all day.

However reason I went 2jz vs LS in my FRS is because I can still make upwards of 800whp on stock internals, all day, reliably(I.e. I've been 840+ whp on a stock head/bottom end 2jz for 110,000 miles in the past)... Little more expensive(for most) but a 2jz is still unbelievably capable and stout as long as you're not sucking it up with a shitty tuner (all engines).

Also... LS swapping my car makes me feel like a basic bitch. Lol... And I'm not dealing with a t56

[AtlasMick]

Originally Posted by OmarGC

Best thing about LS's: once you blow em up, you can go find another bare block for stupid cheap.

Here's my thing. I love LSx engines... cheap, reliable, and great power. Will handle what the average Joe will ever throw at it forever. If I'm building a competition car and engine choices are between 2jz and a newer LS... Blown LS all day.

However reason I went 2jz vs LS in my FRS is because I can still make upwards of 800whp on stock internals, all day, reliably(I.e. I've been 840+ whp on a stock head/bottom end 2jz for 110,000 miles in the past)... Little more expensive(for most) but a 2jz is still unbelievably capable and stout as long as you're not sucking it up with a shitty tuner (all engines).

Also... LS swapping my car makes me feel like a basic bitch. Lol... And I'm not dealing with a t56

Made me chuckle... equates LS swap to "basic bitch."

What don't you like about T56 transmission and in your experience what gives the supra transmission the edge? (I don't know which transmission is on the stock 2jz)

[Sideways&Smiling]

Originally Posted by Mikem53

What do you expect when you put an engine with that kind of power in a chassis without enough mechanical grip to handle the TQ?
That's why they come from the factory with small displacement low TQ motors.. To match the chassis capabilities.. The engine isn't the problem here.. It's getting the power to the ground..

That's kinda my whole point. I'm not saying they aren't great engines. I'm saying maybe they are not the best choice of engine to put in every single chassis that has ever existed for every motorsport in the world, like some seem to believe.

[Cross]

I am also curious as to the problem with the t56 and now the t6060.

As for if it's the best that is the choice of the owner. There are also Ford 5.0 swap kits straight from Ford.

The LS series is user friendly, easy to work with, lighter than most alternatives that can get in its power range and can be found as early as walking into a junk yard if you are in a tight spot.

As for the similar rotary vs LS swap the differences came to light just 10k after that if that long when the rotary went down hill and the LS kept going. Then you had the fun of trying to rebuild the rotary when even Mazda stopped making the housings for them and the coating from the factory to make them last longer is not easy for others to replicate so most rebuilds last half as long. None of that sounds ideal when you think about any swap long term. This is rapidly important if you plan to really use that vehicle for constant hard tasks.

Now some situations will call for a different approach, a 4 cyl or v6 might be the better choice for class options, space constants or any other number of reasons.

However there is a clear reason the LS series has been so popular for swaps and that's because in almost every swap it's light, reliable, powerful and it adds value. Many swaps can't say all that together.

Now if I made any small mistakes it's most likely auto correct as I'm on my phone so I apologize.

[OmarGC]

Originally Posted by AtlasMick

Made me chuckle... equates LS swap to "basic bitch."

What don't you like about T56 transmission and in your experience what gives the supra transmission the edge? (I don't know which transmission is on the stock 2jz)

Size.

And 6 speed Supra trans is a v160. In which I'm not using, I have a 5 speed good for 850+ ft lbs at a bargin

[adprokid]

There is a billet aluminum block for the 2J that weights only a 85lbs compared to the oem 225lbs iron block.

http://www.mazworx.com/store/p/208-M...num-Block.aspx





[IMG]http://www.mazworx.com/resize/Shared/Images/Product/2JZ-Billet-Aluminum-Prepped-Block/IMG-0063-2.jpg?
lr=t&bw=550&w=550&bh=550&h=550[/IMG]

[Mikem53]

Originally Posted by Sideways&Smiling

That's kinda my whole point. I'm not saying they aren't great engines. I'm saying maybe they are not the best choice of engine to put in every single chassis that has ever existed for every motorsport in the world, like some seem to believe.

Agreed...! I don't want the "funny car" experience with the FRS.
I enjoy keeping my foot in it, and the relatively long run thru the rpm range.. The chassis and feedback makes it feel faster than it really is..
I also don't think the unibody on this car can handle the large amounts of tq without some detrimental affects over time..
I like this car as it is.. I'm one of the few who think it's quick enough right out of the box.. But I also enjoyed the muscle car years and Vettes for the past 15 years.. So I can understand why some want more.. But it really is a fun ride as it is

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by Mikem53

Agreed...! I don't want the "funny car" experience with the FRS.
I enjoy keeping my foot in it, and the relatively long run thru the rpm range.. The chassis and feedback makes it feel faster than it really is..
I also don't think the unibody on this car can handle the large amounts of tq without some detrimental affects over time..
I like this car as it is.. I'm one of the few who think it's quick enough right out of the box.. But I also enjoyed the muscle car years and Vettes for the past 15 years.. So I can understand why some want more.. But it really is a fun ride as it is

this isnt a debate about stock power vs an ls swap. its about forced induction vs displacement.

[Cross]

There are tons of aftermarket for both of them. Like my stage 2 Tick T56 that will take pretty much anything I through unless I break 1000hp which as much as I would like to say I will I'm not going to. Or stroker kits for less than the cost of an LS2. The aftermarket's are great compared to others mainly because these motors have proven themselves for years.

I bought that trans with the tick clutch master I will be using to replace the stock FRS clutch master. I also got a spec stage 3+, light weight flywheel, brand new gm slave with speed bleeder basically the only thing I didn't get was the drive shaft but u get that to. It may not be as great a deal as yours but I was happy with it.