Toyota 86 to get power boost with 2015 refresh

[Bristecom]

Originally Posted by mwjcyber

^Exactly.

In the news today:
"The BMW i8 comes to the U.S. next spring as a plug-in hybrid with a carbon-fiber body and electric/gas powerplant that will allow it to rocket from zero to 62 miles per hour in 4.4 seconds. Its performance is accomplished with only a wall plug or use of a 1.5-liter, three-cylinder engine producing 231 horsepower. With the addition of its electric motors powered by its lithium-ion batteries, it has 362 total horsepower, BMW says."

That's great. But it will cost over 100 thousand dollars. So... who cares.

[thill]

Originally Posted by Bristecom

All I know is that on my several test drives of this car, it feels like it stops accelerating around 3-5k RPM. Something has to be done about that for me to buy one. And aftermarket modding is out of the question as I want to keep the factory warranty.

Adding a little bit of displacement is not going to effect the fuel economy that much. Of course, the more power you get, the more fuel you burn but I feel that they are still slightly economy biased with this engine and can afford to give it a little more power. Honda went to 2.2L with their S2000 and it still revved high. And there are many 2.4 or 2.5 liter engines out there now that still have 7k redlines. I am confident that it will only give it a more fun and predictable feel and only minimally limit rev-ability.

And turbos are out of the question for me with this car. I have driven many turbo cars for years including my daily driver, the Eclipse GSX, which has a tiny Garrett turbo. But they are always going to be harder to predict/modulate due to the lag/boost creep. Yes, you can minimize it but it will always still be there to some extent. Not to mention the added weight and potential reliability issues.

What your experiencing is the torque dip. You don't have to add FI to improve it, you can add some bolts ons and get a tune. Or you can learn to drive around it. This car begs to be revved higher and pushed which is what you have to do to work around the torque dip. It really does not bother me anymore, but I would not say no to more hp/tq on a refresh.

This chassis is so good, it could easily take more power without impacting the dynamics of the car.

[Bristecom]

Originally Posted by thill

What your experiencing is the torque dip. You don't have to add FI to improve it, you can add some bolts ons and get a tune. Or you can learn to drive around it. This car begs to be revved higher and pushed which is what you have to do to work around the torque dip. It really does not bother me anymore, but I would not say no to more hp/tq on a refresh.

This chassis is so good, it could easily take more power without impacting the dynamics of the car.

Well yeah, if I got one as it is, I would have to just try and learn to avoid the torque dip - which may be hard for me since that has been the power band for most of the cars I've ever driven. So I'll have to teach myself to either short-shift or down shift more often. But I'd certainly prefer if they'd just fix it for next year. The feelings of going from low RPM's to redline in one gear with a constant push at full throttle is great. And again, I am not talking about a major power boost here; just another 10-30 lb-ft of torque maybe but particularly in the mid range to fix that dip.

And again, I know that if something happens, the dealers are much more likely to deny my warranty if they see a mod - even just an intake (which won't fix the torque dip anyway). The only thing I would feel safe with is a high flow air filter since I can swap it out with the stock one easily.

[thill]

Originally Posted by Bristecom

Well yeah, if I got one as it is, I would have to just try and learn to avoid the torque dip - which may be hard for me since that has been the power band for most of the cars I've ever driven. So I'll have to teach myself to either short-shift or down shift more often. But I'd certainly prefer if they'd just fix it for next year. The feelings of going from low RPM's to redline in one gear with a constant push at full throttle is great. And again, I am not talking about a major power boost here; just another 10-30 lb-ft of torque maybe but particularly in the mid range to fix that dip.

And again, I know that if something happens, the dealers are much more likely to deny my warranty if they see a mod - even just an intake (which won't fix the torque dip anyway). The only thing I would feel safe with is a high flow air filter since I can swap it out with the stock one easily.

I think just some catless headers and a tune would smooth out the torque dip quite a bit and should keep your warranty in tack.

There has been a lot of discussion on the torque dip on this site, and if you search you will find some solid recommendations.

[Bristecom]

Originally Posted by thill

I think just some catless headers and a tune would smooth out the torque dip quite a bit and should keep your warranty in tack.

There has been a lot of discussion on the torque dip on this site, and if you search you will find some solid recommendations.

Yeah, I dunno... I just don't like the idea of modding things like that. I am to the point where I just want to buy a reliable new car and not have to do much to it for years but still have a lot of fun with it as it is. Which is probably the main reason I haven't bought one yet - I've heard too much about engine reliability issues for this car.

In all honesty though, I will likely go ahead and get one when the next model year comes out (MY 2015), regardless of what they do. My current DD is old and the FR-S is still the best new car for me on the market. I just wish they would tweak a few things from the factory to make it perfect!

[thill]

Originally Posted by Bristecom

Yeah, I dunno... I just don't like the idea of modding things like that. I am to the point where I just want to buy a reliable new car and not have to do much to it for years but still have a lot of fun with it as it is. Which is probably the main reason I haven't bought one yet - I've heard too much about engine reliability issues for this car.

In all honesty though, I will likely go ahead and get one when the next model year comes out (MY 2015), regardless of what they do. My current DD is old and the FR-S is still the best new car for me on the market. I just wish they would tweak a few things from the factory to make it perfect!

I am sure the car will evolve and improve over time. The fact that the chief engineer (Tada) is talking more output and is clearly looking at options to address it is a good sign.

[Jordo!]

They should just go ahead and offer three trims:

1. Better N/A engine (2.5?)

2. Stouter turboed model (2.0 + boost?)

3. Inline 6 hairy chested version (new Supra/Fairlady Z Competitor).

Each flavor could delicately juggle finesse vs brute force in different ways for different (but overlapping) audiences, while using many of the same parts from the same two bins to keep costs down.

This would effectively murder the various Hyundai sports cars and seriously wound if not kill the Z (possibly forcing Nissan to decide if they want to develop both a baby Z/Siliva as well as a big displacement brute to fend off the relatively inexpensive and progressively better handling new Camaro/Mustang/Challenger/Charger pony cars).

Just a thought...

[Rayme]

Originally Posted by Bristecom

All I know is that on my several test drives of this car, it feels like it stops accelerating around 3-5k RPM. Something has to be done about that for me to buy one. And aftermarket modding is out of the question as I want to keep the factory warranty.

Adding a little bit of displacement is not going to effect the fuel economy that much. Of course, the more power you get, the more fuel you burn but I feel that they are still slightly economy biased with this engine and can afford to give it a little more power. Honda went to 2.2L with their S2000 and it still revved high. And there are many 2.4 or 2.5 liter engines out there now that still have 7k redlines. I am confident that it will only give it a more fun and predictable feel and only minimally limit rev-ability.

And turbos are out of the question for me with this car. I have driven many turbo cars for years including my daily driver, the Eclipse GSX, which has a tiny Garrett turbo. But they are always going to be harder to predict/modulate due to the lag/boost creep. Yes, you can minimize it but it will always still be there to some extent. Not to mention the added weight and potential reliability issues.

Removing the torque dip would mean a flat torque curve, good luck finding an NA engine with a flat torque curve in a cheap car. The reason of that dip is because of the direction injection, it makes a really good job creating torque in the very low RPM and makes up for lower air intake velocity, (unlike most traditional high reving engine with only port injection) and you're wrong about the S2000, it lost its signature 9000 RPM redline by 1000 RPM. That's more than 10% of it's previous redline with ZERO horsepower gain...but more torque because of the added stroke.

[chrisl]

Originally Posted by Jordo!

3. Inline 6 hairy chested version (new Supra/Fairlady Z Competitor).

Inline 6? Nah. I vote flat 6. Something like the base Cayman engine (2.7 flat 6, 275hp@7400), or even the Cayman S engine (3.4 flat 6, 325hp). It would keep the subaruish character of the car, while pushing it up into a significantly higher performance category.

[Fat Spider]

I think the manufacturers have done great job of building a N/A engine , it's not too many years ago that as an engine builder if you could get 100 HP per litre modifying a N/A engine you had done really well and those engines were fair pigs if you wanted to use them as a daily driver.
Yes the 86 has a bit of a hole in the middle of the rev range but does it really create that many problems. Around town [ 0 - 3500 RPM ] the car is really strong compared to other cars of this era and price range, then if you find a good twisty country road the car excels as it is very easy to keep it up in the higher rev range with the strong performance it has up there. I don't find the hole to be the problem others do, yes you do get caught out now and then but usually it is when you are baulked by other drivers.
Lets see a list of other current N/A cars in this price range that have the drive ability of this car.

[Crossover Auto]

the tuners demand a turbo motor

[guysmyley]

Originally Posted by chrisl

Inline 6? Nah. I vote flat 6. Something like the base Cayman engine (2.7 flat 6, 275hp@7400), or even the Cayman S engine (3.4 flat 6, 325hp). It would keep the subaruish character of the car, while pushing it up into a significantly higher performance category.

Exacto mundo sir

[Bristecom]

Originally Posted by Rayme

Removing the torque dip would mean a flat torque curve, good luck finding an NA engine with a flat torque curve in a cheap car. The reason of that dip is because of the direction injection, it makes a really good job creating torque in the very low RPM and makes up for lower air intake velocity, (unlike most traditional high reving engine with only port injection) and you're wrong about the S2000, it lost its signature 9000 RPM redline by 1000 RPM. That's more than 10% of it's previous redline with ZERO horsepower gain...but more torque because of the added stroke.

I never said the 2.2 Liter kept the same rev limit; I only said that it still revved high. 8k RPM is still VERY high. And if they increase the displacement, then they can probably get away with sacrificing some low end to boost the mid-range and even out the power band. I just think the torque dip in the middle of the power band feels really queer and needs to be changed.

[regal]

Increasing displacement ain't gonna happen in todays world, if it does it will be low volume and high cost. The whole industry including Honda now is going DIT, I doubt Tada has the pull to change that.

I'd like to see them eliminate the back seat, shorten the wheelbase, trim about 300 lbs, forge the bottom end, eaton supercharge and make the thing rev.

But that's a pipe dream just like an H-6 is.

Its going to be an FA20T and the pricing is going to be surprisingly low to keep it competitive.