FA20 - A, Thats F20 Quick Math

[venturaII]

Originally Posted by NOHOME

In the grand scheme of the car's total center of gravity, it is oversold as a feature.

Marketing is a powerful thing.

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by NOHOME

Actually, the power output is not something that I object to with the Subaru flat four. 100hp per liter is nothing special in today's world, but it will do just fine for the driving that I do.

The reason that I call it a silly design is that two cylinder heads and 4 cams, for a 4 banger does not strike me as good design. As to the center of gravity thing...you realize that we are maybe talking 2" difference in the engine's center of gravity over a conventional engine. In the grand scheme of the car's total center of gravity, it is oversold as a feature.

The other thing is that from above or below, it is just offensive to look at compared to a traditional L or V configuration. Highly personal and subjective I realize.

I fixed it, and 100hp/liter naturally aspirated for $25k is rare, if anything, non-existent except for this car; the exception is sports bikes.

I don’t want to clutter their thread with too many arguments, but Porsche is known for their handling because of their flat engines. The BRZ has a lower center of gravity than a Cayman. The motor is like 6-8” lower than an STI and about 8-10 inches closer to the middle of the car. The handling that the car is known for is directly tied to this setup. Splitting the heads in two pieces and the camshafts doesn’t add significant weight, but the handling benefit is well worth it. It wasn’t an oversold feature. It is the best feature and reason Toyota went to Subaru to make this car happen.

[Leonardo]

Here is a picture of an ap1 engine.





It's clearly RED!

[Pure Automotive]

The big factor to keep in mind is "Initial Cost". You can do an S2000 engine and trans for $4400, buy mounts, buy a header, make the exhaust, buy a driveshaft, make your own intake, buy our wiring solution and it's pretty much done. For a 2JZ you buy the engine for $3500, trans solution for $4000, and you still have to buy turbo manifold, turbo, down pipe, intercooler, wastegate, bov, piping, oil lines, etc and that stuff really starts to nickel and dime you. Should you turbo your F20? Hell yea! but you can do that in 6 months or a year or whenever while you drive your stock F20 around, you can't do that with a 2JZ. Just food for thought.

[mulekr1]

You guys really start to get defensive when I bring up a point ��
Anyway a f20c is a superior motor in every single way to the boxer but from seeing my father put a 2jz in a s2000 I just wish the wiring solution for a 2jz was cheaper but a f20c would actually keep the spirit of this car alive so I guess that’s something to consider. The wiring solution is the hardest money to swallow and I hope you guys get it fixed now

[Owl]

Need a second dev car? I've got a '16 with 7000mi on it...

Following this very closely.

[PR138]

I've been teetering on whether to do an LS or 2JZ swap for months, and this may have just convinced me to drop those plans and go with a turbo F20.

Depending on timing of availability and pricing, I may be down to visit you guys very soon. I'm probably an hour's drive away. Whenever you get some solid plans laid out for this, please update us and I'll be in touch.

This sounds like it'd be an amazing match for the BRZ.

[Pure Automotive]

Originally Posted by Owl

Need a second dev car? I've got a '16 with 7000mi on it...

Following this very closely.

I need a Honda swap dev car, if seriously interested email me: pureautomotiveperformance@gmail.com

[86Tony]

Updates?

[Owl]

This is going to be a very exciting swap to follow. I won't be on the development side of things, but I'm eager to see how everything turns out. I have S2000s, Si Civics, and Type R Integras in my friend group. Honda power is pretty nice in little/lightweight cars.

[spitfire481]

We really need a car to make the trans mount and electronics package on. The car we made the engine mounts/mock up with is a 2j vvti/cd009 car that will be finished as that and sold. If nobody jumps on our swap development request, we will probably buy another shell once the 2j car is done and sold.

[wulfgang]

I'll bite.

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

I don’t want to clutter their thread with too many arguments, but Porsche is known for their handling because of their flat engines.

No. Their cars primary characteristics are dominated by their rear-engined and mid-engined layouts and 50 years of development on the same chassis, not by the flat engines. They didn't even choose flat engines, they just inherited them from VW. Don't read too much into it.

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

The BRZ has a lower center of gravity than a Cayman.

Yes, because of the lower ride height (nevertheless, the Cayman has ducts that stick down to make the ground clearance even worse than BRZ). If we drop a car by 1", we lower its CG by 1". If we drop the engine by 1", we lower the CG by what... 0.20"? So how much do you think that engine placement matters?

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

The handling that the car is known for is directly tied to this setup.

No. The handling is more directly affected by the very wide track, the long wheelbase, and most importantly, the fact that all of the press cars had stock tires which don't develop enough grip to move the suspension much. So the press cars corner very flat because a) they don't have grip and b) the track is huge.

I respect that the flat-4 has a lower CG, and that's great. But the marketing is all about the red herring: let's focus on the CG so that nobody asks why in the hell you put a heavy-ass, expensive, complicated 2.0L way out in front of the front wheels when you could have just used a tiny, light, cheap inline-4 instead.

Love the car for what it is (looks, lightness, big track, etc.), but since this is a car forum and we are all car guys... please, please don't perpetrate the marketing BS.

Anyway, I am very excited to see the results of this (or a K series) swap, because I too want to do this. I'm on my second BRZ now and I just can't get over the missed potential with the engine. The rest of the car is perfect!

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by wulfgang

!

I disagree with everything you said. PM me if you want to debate things. I don’t want to clutter their thread.

[wulfgang]

Originally Posted by wulfgang

... please, please don't perpetrate the marketing BS.

And now I'm perpetuating "perpetrate" because the "edit reply" just gives me a blank text box (is my browser broken or is everybody seeing this issue?). Sorry for the typo.