Full throttle Electric Supercharger Build Thread

[s2d4]

Originally Posted by shif7i7down

No problem, just message me when you are around my area, we can meet up. But Just do you know, Janesville is roughly 1.5hrs away from Milwaukee

Btw, gtec didn't go so well so i won't be posting the video, I'm actually slower, could not grip for shit. Burn rubber like crazy all 1st and 2nd gear, but I'll do some rolling race with a lanevo x and post those up soon.

What tyre?

[Winjr]

Originally Posted by enwave

I have yet to experience any "surprises" on the street.

I have, twice, but both times were my own stupid fault, and just the opposite of the kind of surprise you're talking about.

When will I learn? Standing still, making a left turn, traffic coming from the opposite direction, oooh ... there's an opening ... GUN it!

Then lurch, stop and panic. Talk about hustling to get going again.

I know, I know, never WOT at less than 2.5k rpm. After I did this the first time I thought "I'll never be stupid enough to do THIS again". Wrong. Old habits die hard, I guess.

[fenton]

Originally Posted by shif7i7down

No problem, just message me when you are around my area, we can meet up. But Just do you know, Janesville is roughly 1.5hrs away from Milwaukee

Btw, gtec didn't go so well so i won't be posting the video, I'm actually slower, could not grip for shit. Burn rubber like crazy all 1st and 2nd gear, but I'll do some rolling race with a lanevo x and post those up soon.

Interesting. To much torque for the shorter FD. That FD plus the extra snap of the 1.5 conversion must be too much.

How is the weather and road conditions?

[shif7i7down]

Originally Posted by s2d4

What tyre?

235/40 r17 Yokohama s drive ultra high performance summer tires.

Originally Posted by fenton

Interesting. To much torque for the shorter FD. That FD plus the extra snap of the 1.5 conversion must be too much.

How is the weather and road conditions?

84 degrees, dry pavement, without correcting the ratio VD shows 245trq at 3k rpm, might be a little too much for my tires

[stevo585]

Originally Posted by Winjr

I have, twice, but both times were my own stupid fault, and just the opposite of the kind of surprise you're talking about.

When will I learn? Standing still, making a left turn, traffic coming from the opposite direction, oooh ... there's an opening ... GUN it!

Then lurch, stop and panic. Talk about hustling to get going again.

I know, I know, never WOT at less than 2.5k rpm. After I did this the first time I thought "I'll never be stupid enough to do THIS again". Wrong. Old habits die hard, I guess.

-You mean the ESC stalled the car?

[Sojhinn]

Originally Posted by stevo585

-You mean the ESC stalled the car?

I think he means he's spinning out

[CollazoDSM]

Originally Posted by fenton

Yes it is possible. Everyone should be careful not to activate to low in the rpm. Keep WOT activation above 2500 as a rule of thumb....the load it creates below that is very high and should be avoided if possible.

You should also be conscience that if you activate the ESC and immediately clutch in you can stall the car. It is pretty hard to do and it isn't really how you should drive a manual....it should always be in or between gear unless stopped.

I was confused by this too. This is what was said. (It's page 291 if you want to go back and read that part of the conversation).

[robwbright]

Originally Posted by Sojhinn

I completely agree. It's hard to describe how manageable the extra power is. And if you are good with throttle position you can really do some neat things with this system.

This is mostly for @Chad86 and @MmmHamSandwich in the interest of assisting them in understanding what they'd be getting into with this system.

(Regulars: If any of the below is inaccurate, please correct me).

BTW, the switch is like a little arm that bolts on right behind (maybe an inch behind - but you can adjust the exact point by bending it) the throttle arm. The throttle arm doesn't touch the switch arm at all until you've pushed down on the throttle the chosen "x" distance. I didn't even bother to try and bend/customize mine, so it seems to engage at about 75% of the way to the floor.

I had a Prelude VTEC back in the day (original VTEC design that had a set rpm engage). At about 4900 rpm, the VTEC system engaged and caused a near immediate "boost" of approximately 30 hp. The car is ALREADY pulling and then it pulls a bit harder.

This system actually reminds me of that effect - except that the boost is larger - and the difference is that you can engage it at any rpm above, say, 2500 rpm (well, you can engage it at lower rpm than that, but it's not a good idea as the engine isn't really designed for WOT at 2000).

If you engage the ESC by going WOT at 2000 rpm, you'll get 5+/-psi of boost, but the car will not exactly jump forward because you're on the edge of stalling the car by feeding it too much fuel (same effect as if you went WOT at 1000 rpm without the ESC).

If you engage the ESC at 3000 rpm, it's not going to throw you back in the seat, but you'll definitely feel the extra torque and the car will run thru the MPH/KM considerably faster than you expected.

If you engage the ESC by going WOT at 4000 rpm... or 5000 rpm... oh yeah! Quick response and it feels like you're driving a 6cyl with 250hp 200ft/lb tq.

(I'm still on stock tires). Dump the clutch standing still in 1st at WOT at 4000+ rpm? Significant wheelspin. When I was first playing with the ESC, I accidentally did a burnout about 1.5 to 2 seconds long. If you stomp on it and dump the clutch while at a stop sign turning either way onto another road, you will find the rear end coming around pretty quickly.

There's a tight (guesstimating approx. 50 foot radius) 270 degree right hand on ramp getting on to a local 4 lane nearby with no guardrails or other things to run into in the middle of nowhere and with very low traffic (usually no one within sight). I've repeatedly come into that at around 4000 rpm in 2nd gear engaged the ESC and started the turn (or maybe it was started the turn and then engaged the ESC... LOL). At any rate, the effect is awesome. It creates a perfect drift all the way around the corner. Rear wheels spinning the entire way and the front wheels stay perfectly planted all the way around - I've never even touched an edge line. Sure, it's only a couple second drift, but it's fun and safe.

I've driven the ESC BRZ quite briskly multiple times down a very curvy and hilly local road (as in 2-2.5 times the "recommended" yellow highway sign low speed corner speeds and really getting on it on the exits). Talk about fun! But I've never once felt like the extra power of the ESC coming on was going to cause the car to spin or get out of control.

Real world difference? Well, for passing slow moving cars on the highway, my stock 40-60 mph time was around 2.9 seconds. With the ESC, that time dropped to about 2.2 seconds. 0.7 seconds off a 2.9 second time is significant.

I also see approximately 3 MPG better fuel mileage with the ESC than stock. My driving is probably 60/40 highway/city and my average tank is about 30 MPG and I get on the ESC quite a bit (how could I not? ). Stock, I was getting around 27 mpg per tank. Basically, the cruising MPG is significantly better than stock - so much so that it more than offsets the lower-than-stock MPG resulting from the time the ESC is engaged. On one 20+ mile cruising jaunt over a hilly 4 lane, I averaged 40.3 on the MPG meter. I never saw anywhere near that on the stock set up.

I think it's ideal for a daily driver setup. If I intended to track the car much at all, I'd likely go full time FI.

[enwave]

Originally Posted by CollazoDSM

I was confused by this too. This is what was said. (It's page 291 if you want to go back and read that part of the conversation).

This is true non-boosted too, but the effect is amplified anytime you are able to push more air in at a lower RPM. This is why you rarely "launch" your car at 1k RPM, and the ideal launch is 3k-4k RPM.

Even before the ESC, I'd never go WOT at 1k RPM from a stoplight or anything. You always feather in your throttle until 2k-2.5k before stomping it. Same thing here.

[MmmHamSandwich]

Originally Posted by robwbright

This is mostly for @Chad86 and @MmmHamSandwich in the interest of assisting them in understanding what they'd be getting into with this system.

(Regulars: If any of the below is inaccurate, please correct me).

BTW, the switch is like a little arm that bolts on right behind (maybe an inch behind - but you can adjust the exact point by bending it) the throttle arm. The throttle arm doesn't touch the switch arm at all until you've pushed down on the throttle the chosen "x" distance. I didn't even bother to try and bend/customize mine, so it seems to engage at about 75% of the way to the floor.

I had a Prelude VTEC back in the day (original VTEC design that had a set rpm engage). At about 4900 rpm, the VTEC system engaged and caused a near immediate "boost" of approximately 30 hp. The car is ALREADY pulling and then it pulls a bit harder.

This system actually reminds me of that effect - except that the boost is larger - and the difference is that you can engage it at any rpm above, say, 2500 rpm (well, you can engage it at lower rpm than that, but it's not a good idea as the engine isn't really designed for WOT at 2000).

If you engage the ESC by going WOT at 2000 rpm, you'll get 5+/-psi of boost, but the car will not exactly jump forward because you're on the edge of stalling the car by feeding it too much fuel (same effect as if you went WOT at 1000 rpm without the ESC).

If you engage the ESC at 3000 rpm, it's not going to throw you back in the seat, but you'll definitely feel the extra torque and the car will run thru the MPH/KM considerably faster than you expected.

If you engage the ESC by going WOT at 4000 rpm... or 5000 rpm... oh yeah! Quick response and it feels like you're driving a 6cyl with 250hp 200ft/lb tq.

(I'm still on stock tires). Dump the clutch standing still in 1st at WOT at 4000+ rpm? Significant wheelspin. When I was first playing with the ESC, I accidentally did a burnout about 1.5 to 2 seconds long. If you stomp on it and dump the clutch while at a stop sign turning either way onto another road, you will find the rear end coming around pretty quickly.

There's a tight (guesstimating approx. 50 foot radius) 270 degree right hand on ramp getting on to a local 4 lane nearby with no guardrails or other things to run into in the middle of nowhere and with very low traffic (usually no one within sight). I've repeatedly come into that at around 4000 rpm in 2nd gear engaged the ESC and started the turn (or maybe it was started the turn and then engaged the ESC... LOL). At any rate, the effect is awesome. It creates a perfect drift all the way around the corner. Rear wheels spinning the entire way and the front wheels stay perfectly planted all the way around - I've never even touched an edge line. Sure, it's only a couple second drift, but it's fun and safe.

I've driven the ESC BRZ quite briskly multiple times down a very curvy and hilly local road (as in 2-2.5 times the "recommended" yellow highway sign low speed corner speeds and really getting on it on the exits). Talk about fun! But I've never once felt like the extra power of the ESC coming on was going to cause the car to spin or get out of control.

Real world difference? Well, for passing slow moving cars on the highway, my stock 40-60 mph time was around 2.9 seconds. With the ESC, that time dropped to about 2.2 seconds. 0.7 seconds off a 2.9 second time is significant.

I also see approximately 3 MPG better fuel mileage with the ESC than stock. My driving is probably 60/40 highway/city and my average tank is about 30 MPG and I get on the ESC quite a bit (how could I not? ). Stock, I was getting around 27 mpg per tank. Basically, the cruising MPG is significantly better than stock - so much so that it more than offsets the lower-than-stock MPG resulting from the time the ESC is engaged. On one 20+ mile cruising jaunt over a hilly 4 lane, I averaged 40.3 on the MPG meter. I never saw anywhere near that on the stock set up.

I think it's ideal for a daily driver setup. If I intended to track the car much at all, I'd likely go full time FI.

Thanks for your thoughtful post. Not sure if I rubbed people the wrong way but I think I touched a nerve based on some of the replies.

Thanks for the explanation of how to adjust the engagement point. So many times in the thread people say it is cut on exactly at WOT, which as you could imagine sounds like a hair trigger scenario with possibly disastrous consequences. Knowing the ESC can be engaged with up to around 30% pedal travel remaining paints a slightly different picture.

Even so, my main concern is modulation of power as a matter of controlling the car near the limits. I don't think some folks quite understood what I was getting at.

I imagine the scenario of exiting a corner nearing the limits of tire adhesion and slowly rolling on the power.
My concern would be at the moment the ESC engages, you'd get a non linear, difficult to finesse, surge of power that could quite suddenly upset the balance of the car. I am particularly worried that when controlling the attitude of the car with the throttle, the potentially drastic threshold between the ESC being on and off would be a hinderance. I by no means anticipate becoming a proficient drifter, but having smooth power delivery is still important when keeping the tail where you want it.

Your description of its similarity to vtec touches on somewhat familiar ground, as my previous car was a K20 Si. Even so the power added by the vtec transition doesn't seem nearly on par with this system.

Is this a valid concern for this system? Are my concerns totally misplaced, somewhat of an issue in practice, or are folks brushing it under the rug?

One of my hobbies is flying model airplanes, so I am fairly well versed in brushless motors and ESC's, and I wonder why the designers didn't choose a system that allowed more gradual engagement. I guess it would add some cost and complexity, but given the already low price point and simplicity of the system I think it would be worthwhile.

Anyway, thanks for your willingness to help shed some light on this system for the less informed, and for your continued help in addressing my concerns. I am still very much fascinated by this system, but I have to feel comfortable in my understanding of how it operates and the potential pitfalls before I would consider it further.

[fenton]

Originally Posted by MmmHamSandwich

Thanks for your thoughtful post. Not sure if I rubbed people the wrong way but I think I touched a nerve based on some of the replies.

Thanks for the explanation of how to adjust the engagement point. So many times in the thread people say it is cut on exactly at WOT, which as you could imagine sounds like a hair trigger scenario with possibly disastrous consequences. Knowing the ESC can be engaged with up to around 30% pedal travel remaining paints a slightly different picture.

Even so, my main concern is modulation of power as a matter of controlling the car near the limits. I don't think some folks quite understood what I was getting at.

I imagine the scenario of exiting a corner nearing the limits of tire adhesion and slowly rolling on the power.
My concern would be at the moment the ESC engages, you'd get a non linear, difficult to finesse, surge of power that could quite suddenly upset the balance of the car. I am particularly worried that when controlling the attitude of the car with the throttle, the potentially drastic threshold between the ESC being on and off would be a hinderance. I by no means anticipate becoming a proficient drifter, but having smooth power delivery is still important when keeping the tail where you want it.

Your description of its similarity to vtec touches on somewhat familiar ground, as my previous car was a K20 Si. Even so the power added by the vtec transition doesn't seem nearly on par with this system.

Is this a valid concern for this system? Are my concerns totally misplaced, somewhat of an issue in practice, or are folks brushing it under the rug?

One of my hobbies is flying model airplanes, so I am fairly well versed in brushless motors and ESC's, and I wonder why the designers didn't choose a system that allowed more gradual engagement. I guess it would add some cost and complexity, but given the already low price point and simplicity of the system I think it would be worthwhile.

Anyway, thanks for your willingness to help shed some light on this system for the less informed, and for your continued help in addressing my concerns. I am still very much fascinated by this system, but I have to feel comfortable in my understanding of how it operates and the potential pitfalls before I would consider it further.

You should see if there is someone around you that could show you....that would alleviate any concerns you might have

Maybe i can take some more driving videos showing how smooth it engages.

You really want it to engage fully right away so that you get the max effect of the boost.

If you had a slower engagement that takes the main point of this system away....zero turbo lag.

[fenton]

Originally Posted by MmmHamSandwich

Thanks for your thoughtful post. Not sure if I rubbed people the wrong way but I think I touched a nerve based on some of the replies.

Thanks for the explanation of how to adjust the engagement point. So many times in the thread people say it is cut on exactly at WOT, which as you could imagine sounds like a hair trigger scenario with possibly disastrous consequences. Knowing the ESC can be engaged with up to around 30% pedal travel remaining paints a slightly different picture.

Even so, my main concern is modulation of power as a matter of controlling the car near the limits. I don't think some folks quite understood what I was getting at.

I imagine the scenario of exiting a corner nearing the limits of tire adhesion and slowly rolling on the power.
My concern would be at the moment the ESC engages, you'd get a non linear, difficult to finesse, surge of power that could quite suddenly upset the balance of the car. I am particularly worried that when controlling the attitude of the car with the throttle, the potentially drastic threshold between the ESC being on and off would be a hinderance. I by no means anticipate becoming a proficient drifter, but having smooth power delivery is still important when keeping the tail where you want it.

Your description of its similarity to vtec touches on somewhat familiar ground, as my previous car was a K20 Si. Even so the power added by the vtec transition doesn't seem nearly on par with this system.

Is this a valid concern for this system? Are my concerns totally misplaced, somewhat of an issue in practice, or are folks brushing it under the rug?

One of my hobbies is flying model airplanes, so I am fairly well versed in brushless motors and ESC's, and I wonder why the designers didn't choose a system that allowed more gradual engagement. I guess it would add some cost and complexity, but given the already low price point and simplicity of the system I think it would be worthwhile.

Anyway, thanks for your willingness to help shed some light on this system for the less informed, and for your continued help in addressing my concerns. I am still very much fascinated by this system, but I have to feel comfortable in my understanding of how it operates and the potential pitfalls before I would consider it further.

And you didn't rub me the wrong way. I just try to help people understand the system because i have had it the longest and have had the most experiences with it.

[nlowell]

In this video Sojhinn and I (both with ESCs) accelerated off the line partial throttle until we hit the line on the other side of the intersection then went WOT. Notice the smooth acceleration. Not an unsafe boost but a nice push back in the seat within a second of engaging.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnFH4oPutR4&sns=em"]FT86 OFH Performance Comparison - YouTube[/ame]

[s2d4]

Originally Posted by shif7i7down

235/40 r17 Yokohama s drive ultra high performance summer tires.


84 degrees, dry pavement, without correcting the ratio VD shows 245trq at 3k rpm, might be a little too much for my tires

Go AD08R.
I never liked the S drives on my MR2.