Automatic Acceleration in Manual vs Auto modes

[Snowball]

Originally Posted by kavanagh

Data tables and graphs to follow once I sort the data...


Sent from a secret volcano base using trained sharks

Excellent!
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...Can I adopt one of the sharks?


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[Powersfrs]

Originally Posted by kavanagh

From the manual:
When sport mode is changed to while the shift lever is in the M position, the sport indicator will come on but sport mode functions will not be carried out. Shift the shift lever to the D position.




Sent from a secret volcano base using trained sharks

So does that mean that the sport button doesn't have a function in M mode?

[Lunatic]

Baseline Acceleration Tests
I am using the GTEC-PTO RR meter for my 0 to 60 acceleration tests.
http://www.gtechpro.com/rr_fanatic.html
On each test I went both directions to account for any wind or elevation change. Air conditioning off and all traction controls off.
The 1st conclusion I realized is the car will do lower 0 to 60 times in automatic shifting by it's self over manual mode with me shifting @ 7000 rpm. I couldn't believe it at 1st but after a dozen runs or so The proof was on the clock. Full automatic mode was consistently 1/4 second faster. Loading the converter to 2000 rpm gave me slightly better times than nailing the gas from idle.

After several base line runs the best I was able to do was a 8.28 0 to 60 time. This was consistent over several runs.

[Captain Insano]

I have suspected from a long time that the factory OEM AT transmission software tune keeps optimal shift points when you are mashing the throttle versus taking manual mode to 7K or 7200 each shift. I know it sounds strange, but sometimes shifting at the highest RPM point before redline is not the best thing to do. I have no data to support this, and it is counterintuitive... But sometimes when I'm driving in full auto sport on and feeling how this AT actually feels reasonably quick and aggressive, I have been wondering that for a while.

[Grim-Reaper]

Anyone compared single gear ratios and RPM to the dyno curve? Does the factory tune match the power curve after shifting better then redlining?

[MVJ1975]

I haven't really noticed a huge difference between auto and manual mode; I'll have to mess with it a bit more and see. Sport mode definitely doesn't do anything in M.

1st gear in M is extremely short and it's very easy to hit the rev limiter if you aren't paying attention, however. I usually end up going up into 2nd fairly quickly.

[kavanagh]

I'm going to have to do a bigger series of back to back pulls when it cools off. This data is kind of inconclusive in my opinion since I only did a single pull for each different setting, so please don't use it as a basis for any serious decisions. I'm only presenting it to keep conversation going and to show how close the two modes were in my particular testing. I plan to do at least 4 pulls on each setting (48 total pulls) when it cools off here, but for now, here is the data.

I used Dash Command on iPhone with an elm327 wifi dongle to log all results.




Environmental conditions: 112* F ambient air temp, ~153* F intake temp, ~230* F oil temp.




Current car configuration - aFe dry air filter, aluminum air tube with sound generator delete, Berk dual tip muffler delete, e85 tune (this is a test canned tune for a vendor for autos)

I've arranged the results in different ways to make different comparisons. Here are my very generic observations which require further testing to validate:

1. Auto mode accounts for more of the quickest times to each interval (0-20, 0-30, 0-40, 0-60)
2. Auto shift mode had less quicker-than-average intervals than manual (n=17, auto; n=21, manual)
3. The single fastest 0-60 was in auto (8.26s)
4. Not enough pulls in each mode to determine how they effect the times


I still stand by the 'feel' that auto is faster in 0-60, and it looks like @Lunatic's findings support that feeling as well.

Here is an image of the data and an excel file inside a .zip file for anyone that wants to mess with the data. Please feel free to point out any mistakes or opportunities for improvement:

[kavanagh]

Originally Posted by Powersfrs

So does that mean that the sport button doesn't have a function in M mode?

According to the manual, that is correct, it has no function in manual mode.

But... I could swear that using Sport mode in manual shift mode allows you to downshift at higher RPMs. I need to go validate this, but I seem to recall downshifting into the the +6k rpm range when in Sport mode, and being denied when not in Sport.

[sofrsnsokleen]

Originally Posted by JonAvalon

I can't really give some technical data on the subject. But i did some drag racing at the track a few weeks ago. Most of my runs were in manual mode and yes it was slower off the line with traction on. Throttle and accelerations felt like an eternity.

But when i switched to auto mode with sport mode on (traction on) it felt better and yes i was doing the brake gas launch.

Here is a view where you can see me launch (auto & sport mode). I thought i did a decent job launching, acceleration felt good. But of course with the lack of power and tall gears it's still going to be slow. I'm sure with the SSP's upgrades and a tune would help out a little bit.

This vid made me sad

[mizzta21]

Originally Posted by kavanagh

I was having a conversation about throttle response with @feldy and he mentioned the difference he feels between auto and manual modes in the automatic when accelerating off the line:


"I do notice sometimes in manual mode the car feels sluggish off the line but leaving it in auto feels much faster off the line. Not sure why this is but I notice it a lot."




Now that he mentioned it, I have the same feels about off-the-line differences between auto and manual mode. I'm going to go do some pulls and see if I can actually quantify a difference with logs just using Dash Command on the street.


I'd like to see how other auto drivers feel, and see if we can test the following scenarios just pulling through first gear from a stop:


1. Auto, Sport OFF, VSC OFF, Traction Control ON
2. Manual, Sport OFF, VSC OFF, Traction Control ON
3. Auto, Sport ON, VSC OFF, Traction Control ON
4. Manual, Sport ON, VSC OFF, Traction Control ON
5. Auto, Sport OFF, VSC ON, Traction Control ON
6. Manual, Sport OFF, VSC ON, Traction Control ON
7. Auto, Sport ON, VSC ON, Traction Control ON
8. Manual, Sport ON, VSC ON, Traction Control ON
9. Auto, Sport OFF, VSC OFF, Traction Control OFF
10. Manual, Sport OFF, VSC OFF, Traction Control OFF
11. Auto, Sport ON, VSC OFF, Traction Control OFF
12. Manual, Sport ON, VSC OFF, Traction Control OFF


Wow, that's a lot more scenarios than I first thought... Initially I was just thinking of auto vs manual, but you have to take into consideration all the other settings.

Please post your thoughts, results (measured or 'felt') and any relevant car mods or other contributing factors you can think of.


My gut instinct without going out to the car and trying it yet, is that in manual mode, the tranny locks up the torque converter asap and is relying only on the power of the engine, while in auto mode it might leave the torque converter unlocked longer, netting more torque to the wheels for longer...?




tagging some of the folks I know drive autos and also SSP to see their thoughts...

@Tye300 @chiefshayan @Lunatic @poptopclk @connor_lol @Covo_86 @Autocon @whataboutbob @Hardrock4445 @Captain Insano @Lonewolf @sspkris @s2d4 @DeOppressorLiber @FastWhite



Thanks everyone!
I'll post up as soon as I get logs...

What about tests with the pedal dance? ?

[kavanagh]

As far as we know, pedal dance has no effect on acceleration. The only additional thing it does besides traction off, is disable electronic brake distribution (EBD).

[mizzta21]

Originally Posted by kavanagh

As far as we know, pedal dance has no effect on acceleration. The only additional thing it does besides traction off, is disable electronic brake distribution (EBD).

in manual mode, what rpm did you shift? and in auto mode, when did the AT shift?

[Lunatic]

Originally Posted by kavanagh

@Lunatic I thought you'd appreciate this thread after I saw you are doing 0-60 testing as well. I'll load my data soon, but enjoying the long weekend in Sedona.


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Yes I am following this very closely.

[kavanagh]

Originally Posted by mizzta21

in manual mode, what rpm did you shift? and in auto mode, when did the AT shift?

In automatic I believe it shifted about 7250 rpm and I tried to match that in manual mode. The next time I do the passes I will log each run and then will have solid numbers for what the engine is doing in each gear and for each setting.
It just has to cool off here - 110+ ambient is just no good for thrashing about in.