Harness Bar

[CyberFormula]

complete waste...

either do a roll bar, bucket, 5/6pt harness.

Or do a CG lock with stock belt.

That's my oppinion.

[mike2100]

OP are you planning on keeping the harness bar in or only for track days? Are you doing autocross or HPDE?

Assuming it's a permanent install for HPDE purposes:
If you have a harness bar it's safe to assume you're running harnesses.
If you're running harnesses I hope you're using a fixed back racing bucket.
If you're using a fixed back racing bucket and get into a roll over, your body is forced to remain perfectly up right while the roof above you is subjected to crushing forces. Not a good day for your spine. This is why it's smart to add a roll bar when doing seats/harnesses, not just a harness bar. A roll bar also makes for good attachment points for a harness bar.

A full cage is not necessary, nor desired for any car driven on the street. You can bang your unhelmeted head on one of the overhead bars and it's lights out.

A stock vehicle is designed to soften the blows of impact during a crash. Your body is allowed to conform around the 3 point belt, because you're expected to be cushioned by air bags.

Oh and I wouldn't run harnesses without a head and neck restraint. If you fix your body in an upright position the only remaining part that is free to move forward in a frontal impact is your head and neck, subjecting you to a basilar skull fracture. Head and neck restraints are now required in I think both SCCA and NASA racing.

This all may seem like overkill to someone not familiar. It certainly did to me, before I researched it.

Here are the configurations I would consider safe:

1) Beginner to Intermediate HPDE: Stock, wear a helmet
2) Intermediate to Advanced HPDE: Roll bar, 5/6 point harness, fixed back racing bucket, head and neck restraint, helmet (swap in the seat only for track days)
3) Wheel to wheel racing: Full cage, 5/6 point, fixed back, head and neck, helmet, fire suppression, fire suit/gloves (all required for w2w racing anyway)

Personally, I don't think I'd be this cautious for autocross because of the lower speed and zero traffic. I hear there have been rollovers in autocross before though!

[diirk]

Originally Posted by mike2100

OP are you planning on keeping the harness bar in or only for track days? Are you doing autocross or HPDE?

Assuming it's a permanent install for HPDE purposes:
If you have a harness bar it's safe to assume you're running harnesses.
If you're running harnesses I hope you're using a fixed back racing bucket.
If you're using a fixed back racing bucket and get into a roll over, your body is forced to remain perfectly up right while the roof above you is subjected to crushing forces. Not a good day for your spine. This is why it's smart to add a roll bar when doing seats/harnesses, not just a harness bar. A roll bar also makes for good attachment points for a harness bar.

A full cage is not necessary, nor desired for any car driven on the street. You can bang your unhelmeted head on one of the overhead bars and it's lights out.

A stock vehicle is designed to soften the blows of impact during a crash. Your body is allowed to conform around the 3 point belt, because you're expected to be cushioned by air bags.

Oh and I wouldn't run harnesses without a head and neck restraint. If you fix your body in an upright position the only remaining part that is free to move forward in a frontal impact is your head and neck, subjecting you to a basilar skull fracture. Head and neck restraints are now required in I think both SCCA and NASA racing.

This all may seem like overkill to someone not familiar. It certainly did to me, before I researched it.

Here are the configurations I would consider safe:

1) Beginner to Intermediate HPDE: Stock, wear a helmet
2) Intermediate to Advanced HPDE: Roll bar, 5/6 point harness, fixed back racing bucket, head and neck restraint, helmet (swap in the seat only for track days)
3) Wheel to wheel racing: Full cage, 5/6 point, fixed back, head and neck, helmet, fire suppression, fire suit/gloves (all required for w2w racing anyway)

Personally, I don't think I'd be this cautious for autocross because of the lower speed and zero traffic. I hear there have been rollovers in autocross before though!

Mike,
You make some valid point and have some good info.

My plan is to install and leave the harness bar in the car. Primary use is for track days/HDPE. Possibly autocross but nothing firm there.

My desire from this is solely to have something keep me in the seat better. That's it. I've run track days with just the standard 3-point in my WRX and I had way too much movement in the seat. I do wear a helmet as mandated, no issues.

Again, coming from offroad racing I'm pretty familiar with roll cages, harnesses, and associated gear. I do have a neck restraint, fire suit, etc, but I'm really not a fan of a HANS device, even offroad. And yes, I've been in a rollover before too.

So for the time being I'm likely to try out a track day completely stock as you mentioned wearing just a helmet and see how it goes.

[mike2100]

Originally Posted by diirk

So for the time being I'm likely to try out a track day completely stock as you mentioned wearing just a helmet and see how it goes.

I'm about to try the same thing this weekend - I think these seats will prove to have good lateral support at speed. And I'm used to a Sparco Circuit Pro in the Miata.
Another thing besides the cg-lock that might help is the JDM knee pads/braces.

[diirk]

Originally Posted by mike2100

I'm about to try the same thing this weekend - I think these seats will prove to have good lateral support at speed. And I'm used to a Sparco Circuit Pro in the Miata.
Another thing besides the cg-lock that might help is the JDM knee pads/braces.

I agree, I was just looking at the JDM pads, at least the console one. Not sure if I need the speaker one.

Have you tried a CG-Lock? I've been curious if they actually work and are safe to use.

[JRitt]

Hi Guys,
My company (Essex Parts Services) is very deep into our harness bar design. We will likely show some pics in the next couple of weeks. It is a very stout design anchored at four points. It has an adjustable bar height to match different seat/driver heights. It will allow the OEM seat belts to be retained. I don't want to get into an endless debate over the merits of a harness bar. I'm just answering the OP's question.

I personally have used harness bars in my past fixed roof cars. Most recently I had one in my C5Z06. For my Miata, I went with a four point rollbar because it is a convertible. In my opinion, every time you go on track it's a calculated risk. A lot of things can happen out there. In my 13 years of doing track days, I've seen far more cars stuffed into walls or other objects vs. rollovers (that said, rollovers happen plenty of times!). For me, I would rather have the car control gained from having a proper race bucket and harness. Also, a harness allows you to run a Hans. After seeing so many cars stuffed, I refuse to go on track without one ever again.

We are also working on seat rails. We have a Sparco Evo II in our car on the prototypes currently.

[Miniata]

I have CG-Locks on my Miata and Mustang for autocrossing, and did a track day at Midohio a few weeks ago with the Mustang. IMHO the CG-Locks work very well, I wasn't flopping around in the crappy seat in the Mustang on track at all. I've had a full race harness (with roll cage and race bucket) in another car in the past and used Schroth ASM 4-pt harnesses in several cars as well. I'll definitely be putting a CG-Lock in the BRZ, and for HPDE/PDX/autocross use I feel that is adequate for casual use until I step up to a roll bar, fixed race seat, and 6-pt harness for more serious track days and time trials.

[JRitt]

Have you tried a CG-Lock? I've been curious if they actually work and are safe to use.

I tried the CG lock years ago...think it was in my 350Z? It was okay, but just didn't give me the support I wanted/needed. It was definitely better than the "yank the stock belt" method though.

[YoKeutla]

Originally Posted by diirk

My desire from this is solely to have something keep me in the seat better. That's it. I've run track days with just the standard 3-point in my WRX and I had way too much movement in the seat. I do wear a helmet as mandated, no issues.

Just from this statement, I would steer you toward the Schroth Rallye harnesses. If you feel you need more restraint after using the stock 3-point, I feel this is going to be a good compromise. Extra holding power for your trackdays and the ability to use your stock 3-point on the street.

Take a look at Draco-REX's thread below
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15051

[diirk]

I'll keep those in mind as well. They do look like a reasonable option.

[CB762]

Originally Posted by diirk

Mike,
You make some valid point and have some good info.

My plan is to install and leave the harness bar in the car. Primary use is for track days/HDPE. Possibly autocross but nothing firm there.

My desire from this is solely to have something keep me in the seat better. That's it. I've run track days with just the standard 3-point in my WRX and I had way too much movement in the seat. I do wear a helmet as mandated, no issues.

Again, coming from offroad racing I'm pretty familiar with roll cages, harnesses, and associated gear. I do have a neck restraint, fire suit, etc, but I'm really not a fan of a HANS device, even offroad. And yes, I've been in a rollover before too.

So for the time being I'm likely to try out a track day completely stock as you mentioned wearing just a helmet and see how it goes.

Stock belts: just one day on track and just four 20-minutes sessions -- my knees hurt, especially left one. Could be much worse if it was two-days event.
I'm first in the line for the harness bar.

[CB762]

Originally Posted by JRitt

Hi Guys,
My company (Essex Parts Services) is very deep into our harness bar design. We will likely show some pics in the next couple of weeks. It is a very stout design anchored at four points. It has an adjustable bar height to match different seat/driver heights. It will allow the OEM seat belts to be retained. I don't want to get into an endless debate over the merits of a harness bar. I'm just answering the OP's question.

I personally have used harness bars in my past fixed roof cars. Most recently I had one in my C5Z06. For my Miata, I went with a four point rollbar because it is a convertible. In my opinion, every time you go on track it's a calculated risk. A lot of things can happen out there. In my 13 years of doing track days, I've seen far more cars stuffed into walls or other objects vs. rollovers (that said, rollovers happen plenty of times!). For me, I would rather have the car control gained from having a proper race bucket and harness. Also, a harness allows you to run a Hans. After seeing so many cars stuffed, I refuse to go on track without one ever again.

We are also working on seat rails. We have a Sparco Evo II in our car on the prototypes currently.

I'm definitely interested in the both products!

[rice_classic]

Originally Posted by FT-86 SpeedFactory

A harness bar with the standard 4 point harness will not keep you from sliding out underneath the belt in a front end collision. A 5 point would but then again you still have issue in a rollover without a cage.

The Schroth ASM





Is the best option for street cars that see autox and track days. You get protection in a front end collision as the ASM device breaks loose allowing for some slack. But still works as a harness to keep you planted in the seat for track days or Autocross.

The ASM portion of the belt in the linked pictures is the plastic buckle portion behind the head rest on the right strap. That is what breaks open in an accident when the belt is needed.

Everyone has what works for them. That is totally fine, just want to make sure everyone knows there are options out there like the Schroth that are safer, and cheaper when all said and done for a Street/Non-Caged Track Car IMHO.

All of this needed to be quoted again due to the importance of it.

Anti-submarining is bad and having a normal 5pt without a roll cage can be deadly if/when you end up on your lid.

The roof of the 86 isn't exactly "robust".

[Grishbok]

Originally Posted by FT-86 SpeedFactory

Please for your safety do not use a harness bar.

1. Full Cage with correct Harness

2. A Schroth ASM system in a street car.

This, anything else and you might as well slap a shower curtain rod in there.