Automatic for Track, Bad Idea???

[new2subaru]

Originally Posted by 14stu

An automatic won't help you become a better driver and it will limit what you can learn with the car.

How's that? He's already stated that he can drive a MT. I drive a MT daily and track the AT FR-S. While I'm new at tracking I don't feel like I'm missing out on anything. I thought about trading in for a MT, did at least 3 test drives and opted to hang onto the AT. It's a very precise transmission and a joy to drive. The fact that it's so different really appeals to me.

[14stu]

Originally Posted by new2subaru

How's that? He's already stated that he can drive a MT. I drive a MT daily and track the AT FR-S. While I'm new at tracking I don't feel like I'm missing out on anything. I thought about trading in for a MT, did at least 3 test drives and opted to hang onto the AT. It's a very precise transmission and a joy to drive. The fact that it's so different really appeals to me.

You'll always be doing less in an automatic, and you'll never have the pleasure of executing a perfect heel toe downshift. With a manual you're using both hands and both feet all the time. You're more involved more of the time.

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk

[new2subaru]

Originally Posted by 14stu

You'll always be doing less in an automatic, and you'll never have the pleasure of executing a perfect heel toe downshift. With a manual you're using both hands and both feet all the time. You're more involved more of the time.

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk

Fair enough, you can't heal toe. I wouldn't be able to anyways with my big feet lol


It may be slightly less involving but it certainly isn't not involving at all. I think it's a great car in AT form. To each his/her own.

[matttheboatman]

Originally Posted by 14stu

For what it's worth, I've never met anyone at the track with a manual who wished it was an automatic; however, the majority of the guys at the track with an automatic say they wish they had a manual..

Hi 14stu, well, i am the exception. My last car was a Porsche GT4 and had a wonderful manual with short shift and rev matching. I get the fun. But, i am going back to automatic - my next car will have paddles. And, based on the feedback, there does not seam to be any problems going AT with a 86.

For me only the AT provides: No overrevs, computer perfect smooth gear shifts, mid corner momentary agressive gear selection, no clutch replacements, and i feel confortable letting my friends drive it.

[14stu]

Originally Posted by matttheboatman

Hi 14stu, well, i am the exception. My last car was a Porsche GT4 and had a wonderful manual with short shift and rev matching. I get the fun. But, i am going back to automatic - my next car will have paddles. And, based on the feedback, there does not seam to be any problems going AT with a 86.

For me only the AT provides: No overrevs, computer perfect smooth gear shifts, mid corner momentary agressive gear selection, no clutch replacements, and i feel confortable letting my friends drive it.

Fair enough, even though all your reasons for the AT are to avoid driver errors and one of the primary goals of non-competitive tracking is to become a better driver (right after having fun). I guess if you think you'll have more fun with an AT then that's what you should get.

Even with an AT, you should be in the correct gear before you enter the corner. There are very few instances where you should ever be changing gear mid-corner (even in an AT you'll get unwanted weight transfer when changing gears).

I autox and track with a group of 5 other 86 drivers (and one weirdo in a Lexus IS300), only one of them drives an automatic (he wasn't into performance driving when he bought it but we seduced him during the annual 86 day cruise to join us and he's been stuck with us ever since). The guy with the AT suffers performance penalties at both the autox and trackdays (the longer gearing can really bite, especially with the stock tune and torque dip).

You'll be the first person I've heard of choosing an AT for a dedicated track build, but in the end it's your time and money. The platform is great and I love mine as a track and autox car (it's also my daily driver). I couldn't imagine going from a GT4 to an 86 and being happy (well, the nearly $100k price difference might make me happy). I understand not tracking an expensive car since you have to be willing to write off anything you bring to the track; however, I personally would have only gone down to a Cayman or 997 and not all the way down to an 86.

To me, a 'dedicated track car' means a cage, stripped interior, and a major investment in parts. If you do that to an AT 86, I cannot see you being able to sell it later (at least not at half the price of a manual car). Now, if you are just looking at a HPDE build where you throw on some brake pads, swap fluids, and swap out wheels and tires you should be fine. The AT isn't great with FI (at least the turbo AT I drove at the track was a hot piece of garbage, but maybe that was an outlier).

I don't know what your goals are, but you asked if it would be a mistake to buy an AT 86 instead of a manual to turn into a track car and in my opinion as someone who does serious track work with a BRZ is that I'd advise against it. If you said you had an AT 86 and wanted to make a dedicated track car, I'd still recommend you buying a manual and keep the AT as a daily. If you were just starting to do autox and a few trackdays and already had an AT 86, I'd tell you that it's a good chassis and you should definitely enjoy it.

For a full track build, I'd tell you to buy this: http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=131421
or a NA build like this: https://showroom.windingroad.com/listings/product/4136/
You save a ton of time and money buying a car that's already setup for the track.

[bcj]

Originally Posted by matttheboatman

I get the fun. But, i am going back to automatic - my next car will have paddles. And, based on the feedback, there does not seam to be any problems going AT with a 86.

Yup. I've not heard any drawbacks about the twins AT. Sans boosting the hell out of the engine.

Originally Posted by matttheboatman

For me only the AT provides: No overrevs, computer perfect smooth gear shifts, mid corner momentary agressive gear selection, no clutch replacements, and i feel confortable letting my friends drive it.

Oh Noes! The kids will be able to steal it!

[Twinz]

I own both an AT and a MT.

I don't know about durability of the AT on a track, but drivability is great. If you are not interested in shifting a manual as part of your driving experience, the AT in the twins is one of the better ones out there. I have autocrossed my wife's AT a few times and, aside from the inability to launch, the auto does great. I put the AT in sport mode and 98% of the time it does what I would have done with a manual, right when I want it done.

Just to be clear the *transmission* sport mode is great. (Button in the middle of the center console)
The sport mode for the traction control is terrible in the pre 17' models. (Button on the right side of the center console) the 17+ models have a "track" mode that's not bad though.

[matttheboatman]

Originally Posted by 14stu

Fair enough, even though all your reasons for the AT are to avoid driver errors and one of the primary goals of non-competitive tracking is to become a better driver (right after having fun). I guess if you think you'll have more fun with an AT then that's what you should get.

Even with an AT, you should be in the correct gear before you enter the corner. There are very few instances where you should ever be changing gear mid-corner (even in an AT you'll get unwanted weight transfer when changing gears).

I autox and track with a group of 5 other 86 drivers (and one weirdo in a Lexus IS300), only one of them drives an automatic (he wasn't into performance driving when he bought it but we seduced him during the annual 86 day cruise to join us and he's been stuck with us ever since). The guy with the AT suffers performance penalties at both the autox and trackdays (the longer gearing can really bite, especially with the stock tune and torque dip).

You'll be the first person I've heard of choosing an AT for a dedicated track build, but in the end it's your time and money. The platform is great and I love mine as a track and autox car (it's also my daily driver). I couldn't imagine going from a GT4 to an 86 and being happy (well, the nearly $100k price difference might make me happy). I understand not tracking an expensive car since you have to be willing to write off anything you bring to the track; however, I personally would have only gone down to a Cayman or 997 and not all the way down to an 86.

To me, a 'dedicated track car' means a cage, stripped interior, and a major investment in parts. If you do that to an AT 86, I cannot see you being able to sell it later (at least not at half the price of a manual car). Now, if you are just looking at a HPDE build where you throw on some brake pads, swap fluids, and swap out wheels and tires you should be fine. The AT isn't great with FI (at least the turbo AT I drove at the track was a hot piece of garbage, but maybe that was an outlier).

I don't know what your goals are, but you asked if it would be a mistake to buy an AT 86 instead of a manual to turn into a track car and in my opinion as someone who does serious track work with a BRZ is that I'd advise against it. If you said you had an AT 86 and wanted to make a dedicated track car, I'd still recommend you buying a manual and keep the AT as a daily. If you were just starting to do autox and a few trackdays and already had an AT 86, I'd tell you that it's a good chassis and you should definitely enjoy it.

For a full track build, I'd tell you to buy this: http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=131421
or a NA build like this: https://showroom.windingroad.com/listings/product/4136/
You save a ton of time and money buying a car that's already setup for the track.

Great reply 14Stu.

Originally Posted by 14stu

Even with an AT, you should be in the correct gear before you enter the corner. There are very few instances where you should ever be changing gear mid-corner (even in an AT you'll get unwanted weight transfer when changing gears)

There is new thinking on this subject. Mfgs have discovered that with faster onboard computers, and quicker AT shifts, it is ultimately faster to downshift to any gear that leaves some RPMs available in the torque range. Weird I know, but when I converted from auto to manual, and followed the lessons taught from the auto's computer, I was faster than other manual drivers.

Originally Posted by 14stu

The guy with the AT suffers performance penalties at both the autox and trackdays (the longer gearing can really bite, especially with the stock tune and torque dip).

Mathematically speaking, if a paddle shifts milliseconds faster than a manual, it will be faster (all other things being equal). Porsche engineers have determined that all is not equal, and that the reason an most autos are quicker on the track is due to reduced driver workload.

Originally Posted by 14stu

I couldn't imagine going from a GT4 to an 86 and being happy (well, the nearly $100k price difference might make me happy).

If not an 86, then what? I do want to be happy when done.

My parameters are it has to look like sports car (no 4 door hot hatches), lightweight (no muscle cars like Vette, Mustage, Camaro). And, must be built for a reasonable price. I have come to a point where I need added the safety of a cage. Porsche's are wonderful track cars, but when you really analyze the cost of a new, caged auto Porsche, the cost delta is substantially more than $100k. The GT4 is manual. If you want an automatic, you either need buy a factory-built Cayman Clubsport or build it yourself. Either way you are talking $150k ish. That's just crazy stupid money.

The videos I see online of 86s, are within 4 seconds of the fastest GT4 at Buttonwillow, and 2 seconds at Barbers. I can live with that. And, I like be an underdog.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by bcj

Yup. I've not heard any drawbacks about the twins AT. Sans boosting the hell out of the engine.



Oh Noes! The kids will be able to steal it!

The only downside is the inability to aggressively downshift. It is REALLY conservative.

[johan]

Originally Posted by matttheboatman

If not an 86, then what? I do want to be happy when done.

My parameters are it has to look like sports car (no 4 door hot hatches), lightweight (no muscle cars like Vette, Mustage, Camaro). And, must be built for a reasonable price. I have come to a point where I need added the safety of a cage. Porsche's are wonderful track cars, but when you really analyze the cost of a new, caged auto Porsche, the cost delta is substantially more than $100k. The GT4 is manual. If you want an automatic, you either need buy a factory-built Cayman Clubsport or build it yourself. Either way you are talking $150k ish. That's just crazy stupid money.

The videos I see online of 86s, are within 4 seconds of the fastest GT4 at Buttonwillow, and 2 seconds at Barbers. I can live with that. And, I like be an underdog.

Wait for a Supra? Or get a used 981 Cayman base PDK ($30-40k) and strip it out?

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

The only downside is the inability to aggressively downshift. It is REALLY conservative.

Not sure I follow...are you saying in AT mode it is conservative? I've sure not noticed any conservatism when in manual mode.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by Dadhawk

Not sure I follow...are you saying in AT mode it is conservative? I've sure not noticed any conservatism when in manual mode.

It does not allow for downshifts I would 100% safely make with a MT.

[Ultramaroon]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

It does not allow for downshifts I would 100% safely make with a MT.

Will it not let you downshift into the 7K range?

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by Ultramaroon

Will it not let you downshift into the 7K range?

Nope, not while braking hard