Heel-Toe on track

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by Anthonytpt

Does that mean you'll be up and running sooner? !

Not particularly, since I had found a tranny to frankenstein with mine, but now I need to buy a clutch disk and bearings -_-

[Anthonytpt]

Awww. Maybe you can take Allan's. Hahahahaha. Good luck, though.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by Anthonytpt

Awww. Maybe you can take Allan's. Hahahahaha. Good luck, though.

GPW > BB

Although his car has some really, really nice parts... I'm curious how his Ohlins will do if I dial them in. I may have to offer to dial them in in exchange for co-driving a day...

[rice_classic]

Very good animation of what Mike and I were on about.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HE17WUepkKA"]Transmission Animation - YouTube[/ame]

[forwallblakmail]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

I need to practice my heel-toe-double-clutching...

On a side note, I thought I broke my trans on the s2k. Turns out my clutch disk failed. Not wore out, but failed. Waiting on pics to see how much clutch disk I have left after 115k miles of mostly track, canyon, and bumper to bumper traffic.

I did that on my STi. Thought the trans went (which would be insane because the STi 6MT is bomb proof) Found out it was the clutch, which I had thought I wore out but instead I pulled it and one of the brackets holding the springs in the center of the disk fell out in 3 pieces. Clutch still had plenty of life left, but was shot.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by forwallblakmail

I did that on my STi. Thought the trans went (which would be insane because the STi 6MT is bomb proof) Found out it was the clutch, which I had thought I wore out but instead I pulled it and one of the brackets holding the springs in the center of the disk fell out in 3 pieces. Clutch still had plenty of life left, but was shot.

Splines rounded off, so it was just spinning freely (somewhat).

[iLuveKetchup]

Originally Posted by rice_classic

Non-related to the debate Mike and I are having..


Heel-Toe-Double-Clutch

This is my 72 year old dad in my race car:

This is impressive!! Is there a benefit in doing this at the track? I double clutch rev match on the street, but since I'm going at a slow pace there is no need to include a heel-toe blip. I do a traditional heel-toe at the track. I never saw a heel-toe double clutch done. Pretty cool!!

Edit: Just realized I don't double clutch on the street. I just rev match with no brakes.

[rice_classic]

Originally Posted by iLuveKetchup

This is impressive!! Is there a benefit in doing this at the track?

If you didn't have synchros you'd be upshifting much slower and you wouldn't be able to downshift without a double clutch, or at least it'd be extremely difficult. So yes, double clutching during a downshift decreases the wear on synchros (wear from downshifting) by a spectacular margin.

I upshift very slowly on the street and double clutch on my down shifts. However, on a race track I simply heel-toe. I have yet to be able to heel-toe-double-clutch at race pace without giving up time or control. During practice sessions and test days I will try it a few times but come the race... I do what is fastest and in most control. On the race car I don't care if I have to rebuilt the tranny every other year. On the street car I expect the transmission to last more than 200k.

[mistressmotorsports]

In the discussion about whether it is best to skip gears or not when downshifting, there is one other thing not mentioned (or I just missed it!) If you need to go down more than one gear, you will need to wait until near the end of your braking to do the heel/toe, regardless if you double clutch or not. This is because doing it too early will over-rev the engine, possibly causing the rear wheels to overslow (will seem like they are locked, but maybe just spinning slower than the car is going,) and a possible spin or engine damage can occur. Just ask the air cooled 911 guys what the bill is for making this mistake. Those engines REALLY don't like to be over-revved.

I will actually engage every gear in sequence as I shift, no skip shifts for me on the track. Having been track driving since the mid-80's, including many endurance races where accuracy and gentleness trumps raw speed, I'm prety smooth and don't seem to wear out transmissions or clutches, but it took me a while to get there. There was a time when I was really sloppy and wound up with some twisted metal in my early driving days.

I find that not skipping gears helps my timing of when to shift, so I don't shift early or into a gear that I am not going slow enough for. On the street, I will skip shift, but I double clutch if I do.

There is a lot of debate on this topic on many different forums. I think there is no absolute right answer, you just have to figure out what works for you.

Mike

[phastafrican]

My 2 cents, work your way up to being able to heel-toe or blip-shift efficiently on track at all times...but begin your practice in the street where there is less consequence. It takes countless hours to hone this skill so don't rush through it and unnecessarily stress your transmission.

[iLuveKetchup]

Originally Posted by phastafrican

My 2 cents, work your way up to being able to heel-toe or blip-shift efficiently on track at all times...but begin your practice in the street where there is less consequence. It takes countless hours to hone this skill so don't rush through it and unnecessarily stress your transmission.

?? There is more consequences on the street to get into an accident & putting others at risk. In addition, it's harder to do a heel-toe when you are not threshold braking. Unless you drive like a tool on the street.

[rice_classic]

Uh.. on track I'm doing triple digits, on the street I can practice at 30mph and am under no obligation to do while in traffic (no cars around). Learning heel-toe on track is less safe.

Ross Bentley agrees.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by mistressmotorsports

In the discussion about whether it is best to skip gears or not when downshifting, there is one other thing not mentioned (or I just missed it!) If you need to go down more than one gear, you will need to wait until near the end of your braking to do the heel/toe, regardless if you double clutch or not. This is because doing it too early will over-rev the engine, possibly causing the rear wheels to overslow (will seem like they are locked, but maybe just spinning slower than the car is going,) and a possible spin or engine damage can occur. Just ask the air cooled 911 guys what the bill is for making this mistake. Those engines REALLY don't like to be over-revved.

I will actually engage every gear in sequence as I shift, no skip shifts for me on the track. Having been track driving since the mid-80's, including many endurance races where accuracy and gentleness trumps raw speed, I'm prety smooth and don't seem to wear out transmissions or clutches, but it took me a while to get there. There was a time when I was really sloppy and wound up with some twisted metal in my early driving days.

I find that not skipping gears helps my timing of when to shift, so I don't shift early or into a gear that I am not going slow enough for. On the street, I will skip shift, but I double clutch if I do.

There is a lot of debate on this topic on many different forums. I think there is no absolute right answer, you just have to figure out what works for you.

Mike

I tend to do it rhythmicly. You'll know when you can go down a gear with enough seat time... I don't wait till the end.

[iLuveKetchup]

Originally Posted by rice_classic

Uh.. on track I'm doing triple digits, on the street I can practice at 30mph and am under no obligation to do while in traffic (no cars around). Learning heel-toe on track is less safe.

Ross Bentley agrees.

Everyone is on the same page at the track. On the steet there are other cars, parked cars, pedestrians etc. There is no point in heel-toe on the street. Practice or not.