Better handling by removing/reducing swaybars?

[fika84]

Let's just say that his Engineers do all of his work and they are the ones that deserve the recognition, Claude is just a really good salesman. He goes out and sells dreams and then comes back to the office and asks if it can be done. Very backwards way of managing a company. I met some really cool people working there and learned a lot about vehicle dynamics and VB.net programming though!!

[Hoosier Daddy]

Originally Posted by fika84

He is despised by the professional world.

He isn't taken seriously. For good reason. Although his software products are pretty good (cheap!).

Total weight transfer has only to do with mass, cg height, and track width and/or wheelbase! How it's impacted by springs, bars, geometry and dampers results in changes to things like response time, distribution, roll, and pitch angles.

[fika84]

Originally Posted by Hoosier Daddy

He isn't taken seriously. For good reason. Although his software products are pretty good (cheap!).

Total weight transfer has only to do with mass, cg height, and track width and/or wheelbase! How it's impacted by springs, bars, geometry and dampers results in changes to things like response time, distribution, roll, and pitch angles.

"his" software products. So you don't believe in splitting up the weight transfer by geometric and elastic? Where geometric is the amount of weight transfer that doesn't cause suspension compression/rebound.

[fatoni]

Lots of interesting "facts" being thrown around here

[Shankenstein]

Originally Posted by Chad_W

Awesome data! Thanks for all the input.

Is it fair to say that not all roll is bad? Going completely flat around corners my be a desirable trait, but does that mean it offers the ultimate amount of grip? Can a suspension with a little bit of roll be grippier (like the new Miata for example)?

Roll by itself isn't inherently evil. The side effects of roll can lead to reduced handling.

Redistributing weight (tire loading) can reduce the available grip. Flex in the bushings and chassis can lead to poor geometry.

Dampers:
If roll allows for more travel and better control from your existing shocks... that can be a good thing.

If you run high-rate springs without ARBs (like @Captain_Snooze ), your travel will be small. Some dampers are designed to react quickly and strongly... and that type of setup is the holy grail (excellent grip, ride, and handling).

[solidONE]

I remember reading about a couple of guys that are getting very good results deleting the rear sway bar. Although they also have stiffer spring rates on all 4 corners. Robispec and ElementTuning.

I've also experimented with this myself with good results, but had too little rear roll resistance causing the rear end to bounce off the bumpstops on the longer turns. I could stomp the throttle at the corner exit and it would just rotate and grip. Felt very good until it started to hit the bumpstops.

[GSpeed]

Originally Posted by fika84

I used to work for Claude Rouelle. For 2 years. The only people that look up to him, are FSAE students. He is despised by the professional world.

It all depends on the tires and what they want.

I have heard things like that before. His seminars are good, but it's surprising how many people take his word as gospel. The fsae.com forums were always good to see different opinions.

[fika84]

Originally Posted by PST

I have heard things like that before. His seminars are good, but it's surprising how many people take his word as gospel. The fsae.com forums were always good to see different opinions.

EXACTLY!

[KoolBRZ]

I've removed the front swaybar while leaving the rear, and removed the rear swaybar while leaving the front. From experience I can say the car can't handle speed without swaybars if you have oem or similarly soft suspension. I bought the front and rear "soft" sway bars from Cusco. The front bar is a hollow 16mm instead of a stock solid 18mm, and the rear is a hollow 14mm instead of a solid 14mm. The front is 79% as hard as stock, and the rear is 73% as hard as stock. Then I stiffened up my coilover's preload to compensate. Now I'm definitely feeling slop in the subframe chassis mounts, so I'll be installing "Spoon Ridgid Collar" sleeves on all the affected mounts to firm up the chassis. But if you want a really good ride, you'll have to add springs to the seat itself. It's got all the suspension and shock-absorbing ability of a futon.

[venturaII]

Originally Posted by KoolBRZ

The front is 79% as hard as stock, and the rear is 73% as hard as stock. Then I stiffened up my coilover's preload to compensate.

I have a feeling this will fall on deaf ears, but increasing the spring preload is not going to compensate for the softer swaybars. Preload does not change the rate or curve of a spring; it just changes where it starts. Your total roll resistance will remain the same as if you left the preload alone.


Your perception of 'compensation' is the slightly higher threshold of initial spring movement from the additional preload. Basically you've made the car harsher without gaining any additional benefit in the handling department. The perception that increased preload improves handling simply means your spring rates are too soft. Or your swaybars are too small.

[solidONE]

Originally Posted by venturaII

I have a feeling this will fall on deaf ears, but increasing the spring preload is not going to compensate for the softer swaybars. Preload does not change the rate or curve of a spring; it just changes where it starts. Your total roll resistance will remain the same as if you left the preload alone.


Your perception of 'compensation' is the slightly higher threshold of initial spring movement from the additional preload. Basically you've made the car harsher without gaining any additional benefit in the handling department. The perception that increased preload improves handling simply means your spring rates are too soft. Or your swaybars are too small.

Nobody has anything to add about the increased rear traction on our cars equipped with Torsen diffs from deleting the rear sway bar? lol

I've also found (butt dyno) that increasing and decreasing spring preload had an noticeable effect on handling. Jacking up my rear spring preload from 3mm to 8mm helped the rear rotate a bit better. (again, butt dyno. I have no graphs to show)

[Hoosier Daddy]

Originally Posted by fika84

"his" software products. So you don't believe in splitting up the weight transfer by geometric and elastic? Where geometric is the amount of weight transfer that doesn't cause suspension compression/rebound.

Well, poor Bill Mitchell is dead!

I inferred geometric and elastic WT in the second part of my comment. But it doesn't matter what your 'setup' is you will only have so much total weight transfer for a given cg height, track/wb and vehicle acceleration. But you know that...

[fika84]

Originally Posted by Hoosier Daddy

Well, poor Bill Mitchell is dead!

I inferred geometric and elastic WT in the second part of my comment. But it doesn't matter what your 'setup' is you will only have so much total weight transfer for a given cg height, track/wb and vehicle acceleration. But you know that...

Agreed.

[EAGLE5]

Any thoughts on bump stop spacers to change the front/rear balance?