HPDE Safety Equipment

[Dave-ROR]

Here's my opinion on HPDE cars.


You do one of these things:
1. 100% stock. That means seats and seatbelts are OEM and in good condition.
2. Full prep. That means a roll bar at least (harness bars are really the dumbest invention ever to see a track car), 5/6 point harnesses and rigid seats.


Also, IMO, driver and pass side should match as far as the level of safety gear.

[Dave-ROR]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

Keep in mind that motorsports in general cost far more on the east coast, than on the west coast. We have $80 track days here, and on any given weekend, in SoCal, there are typically 4-7 events going on where you can drive.

At the HPDE level out here, I'd say over 90% are driving street cars that see regular street use.

The shit I saw at Laguna this year.. 70% of the cars would fail tech at my events. 100% would pass Chin (where the OP is involved with as there is no actual tech). But I saw some really bone headed shit out in cali and people didn't want to fix it because it costs too much.. you cali people..

[jmimac351]

Originally Posted by Dave-ROR

Here's my opinion on HPDE cars.


You do one of these things:
1. 100% stock. That means seats and seatbelts are OEM and in good condition.
2. Full prep. That means a roll bar at least (harness bars are really the dumbest invention ever to see a track car), 5/6 point harnesses and rigid seats.


Also, IMO, driver and pass side should match as far as the level of safety gear.

As I read this, your opinion is there is no safety advantage to using a 4pt ASM belt and / or H&N restraint in a car without a roll bar?

[Alan]

Originally Posted by Dave-ROR

Here's my opinion on HPDE cars.


You do one of these things:
1. 100% stock. That means seats and seatbelts are OEM and in good condition.
2. Full prep. That means a roll bar at least (harness bars are really the dumbest invention ever to see a track car), 5/6 point harnesses and rigid seats.


Also, IMO, driver and pass side should match as far as the level of safety gear.

Would you feel comfortable driving to and from track with option 2 knowing? Let's assume you use the three-point belt with the fixed seat.

[Dave-ROR]

Originally Posted by jmimac351

As I read this, your opinion is there is no safety advantage to using a 4pt ASM belt and / or H&N restraint in a car without a roll bar?

IMO no. You will get other opinions but I'd rather have the seat fail back, or have my body pushed to the middle and down (by design with OEM belts) then use my head and neck as a roll bar if the car rolls.


Unlikely sure...

[Dave-ROR]

Originally Posted by Alan

Would you feel comfortable driving to and from track with option 2 knowing? Let's assume you use the three-point belt with the fixed seat.

With a bar and not a cage I would. Odds of a rollover in a track prepped car driving on the street are even lower than rolling it at the track.


I tow everywhere now though but mostly for when I smash the car into a wall. It will happen eventually.

[Dave-ROR]

Originally Posted by gatorac

I heard the same thing. You know, there's so many things that deserve stronger emphasis when we consider safety on the track. Car prep is most certainly one of the things that the driver/car owner has the most control over. When we think about how we can mitigate the risks we take on the track, car prep is high on the list.

I don't have exact statistics to share on causes of accidents. It may be difficult to separate the two. I've seen an incident that the driver swears something must have broken when no evidence of it can be found. I've seen a driver use his experience and skill to not crash after a mechanical failure.

Absolutely. Sadly, car prep doesn't mean you won't have a mechanical. It's incredibly hard to inspect everything to ensure that there's no microcrack in a ball joint for example. Loose bolts and such, sure, easy. But lots of failures are stuff that's not easily seen/found ahead of time.


I can't speak for the SN95 in question of course, but I've had mechanical issues on track that almost caused a wreck and the car was very well inspected ahead of time. Outside of DEs of course a small car to car incident can have a massive effect that isn't immediately obvious (have see a fire result from one that burned the car to the ground about 12 hours after a minor rear hit broke a hole in the exhaust right in front of the fuel tank).


Then of course there's always the first car to hit a previously unknown oil spill......

[Dave-ROR]

Originally Posted by johhnc479

Frequency of roll over vs hit something is going to be track specific. Probably not to many rollovers at the glenn

Yeah, go to Slummit to see car launches and rollovers all the time

[Dave-ROR]

Originally Posted by gatorac

While I'm not sure I agree that tires would be considered as a safety item, I agree that they contribute to corner speed. The raw data shows accidents are more likely to happen in a corner so lower corner speeds result in less damage.

I think your thread may have bled over into this one a bit. That's ok as it seems safety is our ultimate goal. here's something for discussion (maybe more on your thread). What would happen if 200 tread wear tires were the max allowed? Anyone that's been doing this for very long knows what happens to lap times and corner speeds on those tires compared to slicks. I'm not saying I'm a fan of excessive regulation. But if it came down to it, it's something I could live with.

I think he meant it in terms of novice drivers running R comps. The warning is far less and speed at which they breakaway are so much greater that the chance of a severe deceleration due to wall contact is not only increased, but that deceleration will happen from a much higher speed. From that perspective it is a safety item and I don't let Novices (and low intermediates) run R comps in events I run.

[OkieSnuffBox]

Originally Posted by Dave-ROR

I think he meant it in terms of novice drivers running R comps. The warning is far less and speed at which they breakaway are so much greater that the chance of a severe deceleration due to wall contact is not only increased, but that deceleration will happen from a much higher speed. From that perspective it is a safety item and I don't let Novices (and low intermediates) run R comps in events I run.

Do we have any data on this? I always see it mentioned.

Let's say same corner/car/etc, you have a:

225/45/17 - Rival S/Star Spec/etc
225/45/17 - NT-01/R888 (or are you considering the Hoosier in the R-comp discussion, even then though)

We are talking what, possibly a 5-6 mph increase in apex speed, if that?

Again, Miata world, but on the average 1:45 lap, typically the R-comp is worth ~1.5-2 seconds per lap.........how much extra corner speed does that really work out too?

However, I will agree that they do give much less audible feedback for a beginner.

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by OkieSnuffBox

However, I will agree that they do give much less audible feedback for a beginner.

Less to do with increased corner speed and more to do with this statement, it's generally accepted that it's harder to save a car that's sliding on slicks than street tires.

[OkieSnuffBox]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

Less to do with increased corner speed and more to do with this statement, it's generally accepted that it's harder to save a car that's sliding on slicks than street tires.

NT-01/R888 are not slicks.

Hence my distinction between these and "real" R-comps like Hoosiers in my statement. I would agree with newbs not starting on Hoo-Hoos.

[Dave-ROR]

Originally Posted by OkieSnuffBox

Do we have any data on this? I always see it mentioned.

Let's say same corner/car/etc, you have a:

225/45/17 - Rival S/Star Spec/etc
225/45/17 - NT-01/R888 (or are you considering the Hoosier in the R-comp discussion, even then though)

We are talking what, possibly a 5-6 mph increase in apex speed, if that?

Again, Miata world, but on the average 1:45 lap, typically the R-comp is worth ~1.5-2 seconds per lap.........how much extra corner speed does that really work out too?

However, I will agree that they do give much less audible feedback for a beginner.

A lot of people around here generally run hoosiers. I don't, because waste of money. Hell I'm not sure NT01, RA-1s, etc are any faster than RE-71R's at this point.


It's a combination of the speed (in my Integra it's worth about 8-10MPH, straight speeds end up being about the same, less acceleration but higher exit, blah blah blah) and the breakaway characteristics. Most novice drivers and many intermediate can't handle a car that steps out quickly, greatly reduce the notice and increase the speed and bad shit is more likely to happen.


That's logic over data to be sure but I've seen it from the passenger seat too often to doubt it.

[philooo]

unless you are racing or time trials, I don't think it is worth the money going above $200 per tire. I'd say that around $175 is where i want to be.