Ace and Nameless header comparison

[RJasonKlein]

I'm very surprised by the results and my initial thought is that either Nameless Performance has made a leap in their latest revision header or your tuner isn't getting the most out of your ACE Header unit. The ACE header requires extensive cam timing manipulation to get optimal power and drivability - how much experience does Church Automotive Testing have with the ACE header? Delicious Tuning and CounterSpace Garge worked jointly on the development maps and testing for the manufacturer and they're both pretty close to the original poster, so he may want to see if Delicious Tuning can get more out of the ACE header than Church Automotive Testing did.

The numbers just don't look right to me - @DeliciousTuning, @CSG Mike, and @CounterSpace Garage do you guys have any thoughts on what's going on here?

[psybre]

The runs are 2.5 years apart? I can't say for certain that would cause any sort of difference, but it might be nice to have more recent data for the nameless header. Not saying the ace header should be better, but that's a pretty long time.

[CSG Mike]

I would bring up a few points.

- This is great that the same dyno is being used!
- This is a dedicated AutoX car, with 2.5 years of competition on the motor. The motor may be getting tired.
- Shawn generally will slightly detune competition cars, to help them survive longer, especially street driven ones.
- Winter blend gas (Ace) vs Summer blend gas (Nameless).

P.S. my car makes more with the stock front pipe on... which tells me something is causing a power reduction. My car also has smaller gains on Ethanol than the original 2015 car used for testing, which only tells me that my 91 tune even more spot on.

[brzaapi]

Originally Posted by Decay107

Because I trust a FnG tune from Delicious more than i trust any BRZ tuner within 500 miles of me. And, the FnG tune worked so damn well, with no problems i never felt the need to mess with it.

Note: My cars were dynoed on a COBB dyno, they arent real keen on tuning with Ecutek. But i trust their dyno results.
And love hanging at the shop.

As for the other two headers, well there wasnt time to fiddle while i was testing them out. I used them as is with the most appropriate canned tunes. I have ran 4 BRZs in 3 years time, with a number of products installed. You can say I am a car-aholic. I am not great racer, but i love hitting the track and fiddling with cars. But i dont always have time to go get custom pro-tunes on all my cars.

If it makes you feel better and less confused by my actions, my Golf R and my Wife's Cayman have had all the good treatment they deserve. And have been properly protuned. But sometimes MY toys dont get all the love in our household. Still, regardless dyno sheet or no dyno sheet. My ACE destroyed the other two headers i had, in every way that i can judge a piece of pipe.

I'm sure the nameless is great, but i have no personal experience with it.

Sorry my opinion or choices arent up to your standards. I am just sharing what experience i do have with my limited free time.

[Calum]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

I would bring up a few points.

- This is great that the same dyno is being used!
- This is a dedicated AutoX car, with 2.5 years of competition on the motor. The motor may be getting tired.
- Shawn generally will slightly detune competition cars, to help them survive longer, especially street driven ones.
- Winter blend gas (Ace) vs Summer blend gas (Nameless).

I'll add weather conditions, engine/oil temperature, could also account for the power differences. I'm not saying that IS that case, but it COULD be. And after two and a half more years of tuning this platform Church might run things a little differently now than he did originally. Then there's dyno calibration, operator differences (as in how the car was strapped down)...


In all reality, the only thing we can really take from these two dynos is that the headers are close for most of the range, but down low the Nameless header still has the dip. If that part of the rpm range is of concern to you, the decision is obvious. If it's not, well go with what ever makes you happy.

[Icecreamtruk]

On a different note. Is the nameless putting out a lot heat into the engine bay? I mean, its no turbo but its positioned right in front of the engine and behind the radiator. It has to heat things up at least from radiant heat. The intake temps could rise over the course of a 20mins session more than they would with the ace I assume?

[Tokay444]

EL>UEL.

[Decay107]

Originally Posted by Tokay444

EL>UEL.

Originally Posted by Icecreamtruk

On a different note. Is the nameless putting out a lot heat into the engine bay? I mean, its no turbo but its positioned right in front of the engine and behind the radiator. It has to heat things up at least from radiant heat. The intake temps could rise over the course of a 20mins session more than they would with the ace I assume?

Yes, I melted my intake box when I ran it. No problems at all with track driving, but waiting in line at autocross or stuck in traffic saw the whole intake system heat soak. Also, I melted my fans a little.

Originally Posted by brzaapi

Because I trust a FnG tune from Delicious more than i trust any BRZ tuner within 500 miles of me. And, the FnG tune worked so damn well, with no problems i never felt the need to mess with it.

Note: My cars were dynoed on a COBB dyno, they arent real keen on tuning with Ecutek. But i trust their dyno results.
And love hanging at the shop.

As for the other two headers, well there wasnt time to fiddle while i was testing them out. I used them as is with the most appropriate canned tunes. I have ran 4 BRZs in 3 years time, with a number of products installed. You can say I am a car-aholic. I am not great racer, but i love hitting the track and fiddling with cars. But i dont always have time to go get custom pro-tunes on all my cars.

If it makes you feel better and less confused by my actions, my Golf R and my Wife's Cayman have had all the good treatment they deserve. And have been properly protuned. But sometimes MY toys dont get all the love in our household. Still, regardless dyno sheet or no dyno sheet. My ACE destroyed the other two headers i had, in every way that i can judge a piece of pipe.

I'm sure the nameless is great, but i have no personal experience with it.

Sorry my opinion or choices arent up to your standards. I am just sharing what experience i do have with my limited free time.

Fair enough, it just seemed silly to me to spend so much on exhaust and not have a custom calibration, but I could see it if there are not any tuning options locally. It is not about my "standards" though, it's that comparing any two headers in a way that is not data driven in meaningless. Comparing two headers using the same base map is meaningless. My current assumption is as follows, let me know if there are any errors.

Car #1, OFT and OFH
Car #2, OFT and Tomei
Car #3, Delicious FnG and Ace
Car #4, Delicious FnG and Ace

Now you have me really curious, what caused you to go through 4 BRZs in 4 years?!?

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by Icecreamtruk

On a different note. Is the nameless putting out a lot heat into the engine bay? I mean, its no turbo but its positioned right in front of the engine and behind the radiator. It has to heat things up at least from radiant heat. The intake temps could rise over the course of a 20mins session more than they would with the ace I assume?

OP's fans were also melting with his Nameless header. Performance of the fans was not yet compromised, but it's obvious that the plastic was getting soft and bubbling/melting.

[brzaapi]

Comparing two headers using the same base map is meaningless.

I agree with that, my intention wasnt too give a full comparison, i was just sharing my previous experience and thoughts on it in the thread. I am really curious about the Nameless performance. I have never been able to take a BRZ as far as I want to. Which leads me to answer your last question down below.



My current assumption is as follows, let me know if there are any errors.

Car #1, OFT and OFH (FBM Turbo kit)
Car #2, OFT and Tomei (OFT/OFH then Tomei/Ecutek)
Car #3, Delicious FnG and Ace (yes)
Car #4, Delicious FnG and Ace (yes and soon to have EBSC as well)

Now you have me really curious, what caused you to go through 4 BRZs in 4 years?!?

Oh man, this could be a long story. And there have been many other project cars to discuss. But i wont get into those. My daughter came along last year, and since I have cooled my jets and I am really only working on the BRZ now. And hopefully, I get to keep this one. But here goes......

In short, 2 of my previous BRZs were in accidents. My first MY13 was an icy encounter on a bridge. 8 cars were involved. I was one of the unlucky ones. That was my WRB BRZ with FBM kit. I have a pic of that below.

Then my second car (which i had for a little over a year) was traded towards the Cayman i mentioned before. That was primarily the wifes car. But in time i talked her into us needing a BRZ along with her P-car. The cayman was great, but the bRZ was more fun for the money to me.

So the 3rd BRZ was picked up Dec 2015, it was t-boned last July. An old man tried to shoot a gap between two trucks ( i live in big truck land, south of Oklahoma City,OK) and my Subie was sitting right in between them. I was knocked into the curb right in front of a Mcdonalds. Didnt look to bad, despite some air bags. But the suspension and frame were a mess.

Other cars have come and gone to a degree. But for the money, I really enjoy the BRZ plus it is much cheaper to maintain than other cars i have dabbled with. So I am back into my 4th one, 7 months later. My wife thinks maybe i am not meant to be in a BRZ, considering my luck with them. I am convinced that all my neighbors are out to get me in my little Suzuki, or at least that is what they think i am driving. But in the land of V8 muscle, driving a BRZ gets you into all kinds stupid nonsense.

And, yes i still have my S2000 shown as my avatar.

Edit - The wife also tracks and AXs occasionally. In addition, before trading the 2nd BRZ i was about to get a proper tune for the Tomei. Again, with timing..it never materialized.



http://www.ft86club.com/forums/attac...1&d=1486755757

[bfrank1972]

Way to show brand loyalty

FWIW I'm in the boat with custom tunes - I'd have a custom tune for my P&L EL 4-1 long tube if I weren't getting rid of it for my supercharger kit.

I don't know much about the ACE, but it looks a whole lot different than the nameless header. I would think they all would benefit quite a bit from custom tunes - the cam timing (which can also affect ignition timing and afr) is probably going to be significantly different between the designs. Then again I'm not a tuner so whatever I say is from limited experience

[RiskyTrousers]

Originally Posted by bfrank1972

I don't know much about the ACE, but it looks a whole lot different than the nameless header. I would think they all would benefit quite a bit from custom tunes - the cam timing (which can also affect ignition timing and afr) is probably going to be significantly different between the designs. Then again I'm not a tuner so whatever I say is from limited experience

They're quite similar. I would venture to say that they're more similar to each other than to anything else on the market. They both extend primary and secondary runners to allow for benefits such as better scavenging. The real difference would be primary/secondary lengths and diameters. This is not accounting for build and materials quality.

[bfrank1972]

Originally Posted by RiskyTrousers

They're quite similar. I would venture to say that they're more similar to each other than to anything else on the market. They both extend primary and secondary runners to allow for benefits such as better scavenging. The real difference would be primary/secondary lengths and diameters. This is not accounting for build and materials quality.

Yeah they're both 4-2-1 designs, but the primaries and secondaries both look longer on the ACE, and the secondaries merge right before the overpipe. Nameless secondaries merge into a single pipe quite a bit before the overpipe. Which sort of makes sense - in your graph the longer tube ACE header has better bottom end, and the Nameless with the shorter tubes does better on the upper half... but that's really oversimplifying things. Like you said, tube diameter, and collectors will make a big difference as well. Anyway, despite being 4-2-1 EL headers, I'd think a custom tune would be worth it. YYMV

[RiskyTrousers]

Originally Posted by bfrank1972

Yeah they're both 4-2-1 designs, but the primaries and secondaries both look longer on the ACE, and the secondaries merge right before the overpipe. Nameless secondaries merge into a single pipe quite a bit before the overpipe. Which sort of makes sense - in your graph the longer tube ACE header has better bottom end, and the Nameless with the shorter tubes does better on the upper half... but that's really oversimplifying things. Like you said, tube diameter, and collectors will make a big difference as well. Anyway, despite being 4-2-1 EL headers, I'd think a custom tune would be worth it. YYMV

Using the overpipe as frame of reference for runner lengths might draw you to an incorrect conclusion since it's not taking into account the extra length the nameless gets by going further into the engine bay. Unfortunately I did not measure them, but would guess that they're close. Besides, that doesn't matter to me since I know squat about exhaust design and theory. For all I know optimal lengths could be 3 times longer than either of these.

I agree, I would take a custom tune by a competent tuner over an off the shelf tune any day.