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Old 11-05-2019, 04:48 PM   #71
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This thread has blown up and I haven't read the whole thing. I'm guessing the new ring times have been talked about. Running a 7:13 is impressive even if it has no interior, Cup 2R's, wing and diffuser. Who knows what the three motor will weight but I suspect it's close to 5000. Let's say they shave 200lbs by gutting the seats. It's still impressive to run that time.
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Old 11-05-2019, 04:55 PM   #72
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This thread has blown up and I haven't read the whole thing. I'm guessing the new ring times have been talked about. Running a 7:13 is impressive even if it has no interior, Cup 2R's, wing and diffuser. Who knows what the three motor will weight but I suspect it's close to 5000. Let's say they shave 200lbs by gutting the seats. It's still impressive to run that time.

I believe you are the first mention. Thanks. This:

https://insideevs.com/news/380247/te...d-beat-taycan/

Quote:
The Tesla Model S Plaid reportedly lapped the Nurburgring in a time of just 7 minutes and 13 seconds. That's 29 seconds less than the Porsche Taycan's time.
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Old 11-05-2019, 05:04 PM   #73
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Quizzaciously they did
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fCn8zs912OE[/ame]
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Old 11-05-2019, 08:58 PM   #74
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Hell, the model 3 does the quarter in 11.7
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Old 11-06-2019, 07:07 AM   #75
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I believe you are the first mention. Thanks. This:

https://insideevs.com/news/380247/te...d-beat-taycan/
I'm impressed it didn't overheat. How many laps can it run in a row? Can it actually be competitive now in races?

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Why you gotta be a hateboy?
We can link back to this thread in another five years and see where they stand.
Like Amazon, they are reinvesting in infrastructure, so they can be more profitable. Part of that infrastructure will reduce the cost of their cars by scale of industry and efficiency, yet currently, their cars are profitable. Without the government rebates, their cars will still sell at their current prices, and that is the only arguable point.
See above. Essentially, they are capable of selling cars at a profit; ie, they aren't producing cars at a deficit, nor are they producing cars that are reliant on the government rebate to sell them at a competitive rate. They are continuing to reinvest in the company just like Amazon did, but then it will explode. The fact that the Tesla Model 3 was the 3rd best selling car in California (beating the Honda Accord and Toyota Corrolla) at a time when companies like Ford are dropping sedans all together, should really say something about demand for their vehicles. This will only compound when the Model Y enters the market and the Plaid platform.
https://cleantechnica.com/2019/05/22...n-1st-quarter/
Other manufactures will definitely catch up eventually, but Tesla has a significant lead. Plus, Tesla isn't retrofiting electric powertrains into ICE chassis. Once VW finishes developing their electric platform then things will start to shift away from Telsa dominating this segment, but they will still be behind Tesla in engine, battery and infortainment tech. Even in the future, this isn't a niche market anymore. Elon Musk has said that any one manufacture really only has around 10% of the market. When others enter the market then they will probably eat into their own sales by replacing ICE vehicles. The only situation where Telsa loses sales is if they continue to dominate for a long time like Apple did with the iPhone before the market catches up to them, again, like Apple.
They are luxury toys. And that is all they will be until they can actually be used in every way a normal car can and they can be bought for a reasonable amount of money. $30k is not reasonable, and that lasted for what? A month at most. Most Model 3's are $50k at least.

I honestly don't hate. I despise stupidity. Musk is being a moron. Tesla is simply proof of concept that people will buy luxury status symbols even if they use different technology. For someone that likes cars, ev's offer a lot. The acceleration is pretty awesome, and the fact that it is all software means it can be easily modified. City dwellers can buy used ev's for about $10k right now. The deprecation on ev's is massive.

Tesla as a company was literally handed everything they needed. The automotive industries made sure they had everything, and the government made sure they had cash. And yet Tesla would have already gone bankrupt if they tried to sell normal priced cars with all their horrendous issues. If you are wealthy those issues aren't as important, but if it is going to be your only car, you don't have the ability to deal with a vehicle that has a charger that cannot be removed until the tech's get their in a few days.

Musk could have easily fixed all these issues by actually hiring people who have experience to run his car company. Instead he has to play at being some amazing do everything person when he is really just a good computer programmer with too much money. Intelligent people find the best people for a job and let them do their thing. Musk is an ego driven maniac that decided he wanted a car company that ran like Apple does.

The limit on electric vehicles now is the electric grid. Selling electric cars in California is moronic, they already have massive rolling brownouts. Until California wakes up and invests in modern nuclear power plants stressing their electric grid is only going to cause more problems than it solves. And nowhere on the planet has an electric grid capable of dealing with more than 20% of the population having electric cars.

As soon as solar panels can power these cars fully, then they will actually become useful. Electric cars have been around since the beginning of the Auto industry. What next? Steam powered cars make a comeback? They were the fastest for a long time.

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Old 11-06-2019, 07:20 AM   #76
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It would cost the same.
I don't think so. There is a lot of programming and computing power put into all those "extras". Nothing is free.

Now, they might charge the same, granted, but nothing in a car is free. Every cupholder costs something in the design and build process.
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Old 11-06-2019, 11:58 AM   #77
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I'm impressed it didn't overheat. How many laps can it run in a row? Can it actually be competitive now in races?



They are luxury toys. And that is all they will be until they can actually be used in every way a normal car can and they can be bought for a reasonable amount of money. $30k is not reasonable, and that lasted for what? A month at most. Most Model 3's are $50k at least.

I honestly don't hate. I despise stupidity. Musk is being a moron. Tesla is simply proof of concept that people will buy luxury status symbols even if they use different technology. For someone that likes cars, ev's offer a lot. The acceleration is pretty awesome, and the fact that it is all software means it can be easily modified. City dwellers can buy used ev's for about $10k right now. The deprecation on ev's is massive.

Tesla as a company was literally handed everything they needed. The automotive industries made sure they had everything, and the government made sure they had cash. And yet Tesla would have already gone bankrupt if they tried to sell normal priced cars with all their horrendous issues. If you are wealthy those issues aren't as important, but if it is going to be your only car, you don't have the ability to deal with a vehicle that has a charger that cannot be removed until the tech's get their in a few days.

Musk could have easily fixed all these issues by actually hiring people who have experience to run his car company. Instead he has to play at being some amazing do everything person when he is really just a good computer programmer with too much money. Intelligent people find the best people for a job and let them do their thing. Musk is an ego driven maniac that decided he wanted a car company that ran like Apple does.

The limit on electric vehicles now is the electric grid. Selling electric cars in California is moronic, they already have massive rolling brownouts. Until California wakes up and invests in modern nuclear power plants stressing their electric grid is only going to cause more problems than it solves. And nowhere on the planet has an electric grid capable of dealing with more than 20% of the population having electric cars.

As soon as solar panels can power these cars fully, then they will actually become useful. Electric cars have been around since the beginning of the Auto industry. What next? Steam powered cars make a comeback? They were the fastest for a long time.
They can do autocross, time attack, etc. Like MotoGP/WSBK motorcycle racing or Formula E, EVs could race in a thirty minute circuit with no recharging. They can’t do everything unless a team is aloud to do battery pack changes or do car swaps.

You are using old data. Resale value is higher than average in many cases. The Plaid platform is built around a million mile life, so resale value is definitely going to be better than any ICE.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.for...e-upswing/amp/

Teslas are the cheapest luxury cars at this time. A Tesla Model 3 base model after ten years is cheaper than any other luxury sedan. It is cheaper than some non-luxury sedans. Gas here is at least $4/gal; if the average person drives 12-15k miles a year in a vehicle that gets 30m/gal mixed driving then they would spend $1,600-2,000 on gas per year, which is $16,000-20,000 after ten years. Add costs of drivetrain repairs, oil changes, etc, and depending on your recharge sources and costs, the car can be equal to other econoboxes.

California has blackouts because of dry conditions mixed with high winds leading to powerline related fires. I would know. Look where I live. It isn’t a problem with electric infrastructure. California is on pace to be completely renewable for energy production too.

EVs are entirely practical for most people. The average person drives less than 30 miles a day, which is ten days of use for most people between recharges, which if someone uses a supercharger, it can be 20 minutes to add another 150 miles, and those times are rapidly improving.

Your arguments are entirely antiquated. You’re coming off as a Tesla hateboy more and more.
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Old 11-06-2019, 12:31 PM   #78
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Your arguments are entirely antiquated. You’re coming off as a Tesla hateboy more and more.
And to some extent you're sugarcoating and picking the best facts to make your points.

For example, being able to fast charge 150 miles in 30 minutes sounds good in theory, as long as that's the one stop you need to make. It's not unusual for me to travel 700 or more miles in a day on a road trip and have to stop multiple times adds either hours to my trip, or having to plan stops around where superchargers are, leading to a potential overnight stay I wouldn't have otherwise.

I don't buy the "you'll stop for meals anyway" argument some folks use (not you) for two reasons. One, I rarely stop for meals when traveling and if I do its for less than 30 minutes. Two, if I'm traveling with family and do stop for meals we have dietary restrictions which mean we may not be able to conveniently eat at the "right" supercharger.
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Old 11-06-2019, 01:16 PM   #79
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Those are some big reasons to steer away from evs. Part of country, occupation really weigh on transportation needs. Maybe in 5 or 10 years evs will be as range friendly as ice vehicles.
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Old 11-06-2019, 01:25 PM   #80
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And to some extent you're sugarcoating and picking the best facts to make your points.

For example, being able to fast charge 150 miles in 30 minutes sounds good in theory, as long as that's the one stop you need to make. It's not unusual for me to travel 700 or more miles in a day on a road trip and have to stop multiple times adds either hours to my trip, or having to plan stops around where superchargers are, leading to a potential overnight stay I wouldn't have otherwise.

I don't buy the "you'll stop for meals anyway" argument some folks use (not you) for two reasons. One, I rarely stop for meals when traveling and if I do its for less than 30 minutes. Two, if I'm traveling with family and do stop for meals we have dietary restrictions which mean we may not be able to conveniently eat at the "right" supercharger.
So if you are doing that a lot then you wouldn’t be a good candidate for an EV. No one is suggesting it fits everyone’s needs. It fits the vast majority of people’s needs.

Moreover, megachargers are coming. Expect times to drop to levels that make these arguments nonsensical. Battery swapping has been shown to be effective too, being twice as fast as charging with fuel.

Even if someone has an argument against the functionality or cost of these cars, these arguments will dissipate in the near future. It isn’t a matter of if but when.
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Old 11-06-2019, 02:02 PM   #81
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So if you are doing that a lot then you wouldn’t be a good candidate for an EV. No one is suggesting it fits everyone’s needs. It fits the vast majority of people’s needs.
See now, you're being reasonable, which lets face it is very rare in the EV enthusiast community. If you visit their equivalent of this site, anyone still driving an ICE is just killing the planet, and has too high a neanderthal gene count in their family eco-tree.


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Moreover, megachargers are coming. Expect times to drop to levels that make these arguments nonsensical. Battery swapping has been shown to be effective too, being twice as fast as charging with fuel.
I agree, and when that is all in place I'm good with it because it will fit my needs. I think the battery swap thing is a non-starter though. Too complicated in terms of battery life, availability, logistics, etc. It would make sense in a rental/lease fleet maybe where the leaser retains responsibility for the battery quality, etc.

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Even if someone has an argument against the functionality or cost of these cars, these arguments will dissipate in the near future. It isn’t a matter of if but when.
I agree, and truly do believe I'll own one in the next 10 years and maybe as little as 5 years, not something I would have said as little as 6 months ago. It just won't be a Tesla.
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Old 11-06-2019, 04:33 PM   #82
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Better than the Taycan?

https://www.thedrive.com/news/30864/...he-rear-wheels
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Old 11-06-2019, 05:09 PM   #83
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"Are you ignorant or just apathetic about EVs?"
"I don't know about EVs and I don't care! And I hate them!"

Idiocy.

I've had three EVs from three different brands. Two were returned after leases. I've driven four other EV models. Thinking of getting another. I've had multiple i4 engines, a flat 4 now, an i6, a v6, and a couple v8 engines. None of them are worth shit against a good EV drivetrain. EVs are not just the future, they're the superior product right now this second for most of the uses people have. If you say you love cars and you're not curious about EVs, you don't love cars one bit. If you have the cojones, go test drive a Tesla M3P. You'll shit yourself at how good the suspension, brakes, and acceleration are. And a P100D is on another level entirely.

If Tesla could make a quality interior, I'd have bought one long ago.

Top Gear has always been full of shit, but at least it was entertaining with Jezza. Now it's boring and full of shit. Shrug.
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Old 11-07-2019, 07:54 AM   #84
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If you say you love cars and you're not curious about EVs, you don't love cars one bit...
And there it is, the "if you aren't Team EV, you're somehow a lesser person" argument.

EV is a type of drive train, nothing more. I love cars just about as much as the next enthusiast but just because there is a particular drive train I don't care about doesn't make me less of one.

For example, a couldn't possibly care less about diesels. They hold zero interest for me. Same for CNG, jet fuel, fryer oil, corn whiskey or a lot of other alternate fuels and the drive trains that use them.

I also don't care that much for high end cars that are basically just a commodity/art piece used to move wealth around from one person to another.

I do find EVs interesting, follow them, have driven a couple and figure I will eventually own one, but if I decided at some point, nah not interested that doesn't make me any less a "car guy".
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