Why you shouldnt support knock off companies..

[showbe]

http://www.motoiq.com/magazine_artic...e-hks-usa.aspx

Might be old news to some but could be new news to others. I read another article that said similar things but went deeper into it then just HKS. It was on this Wheels blog and it went into other things from other companies that made it possible to modify uncommon cars, but eventually went out of business because of companies buying there product then sending them to China to make a knock off.

Supporting Chinese knock offs will eventually kill our scene or atleast make it to the point of it being way too expensive for some to enjoy it at. It seriously doesnt take that much longer to get enough money to afford a nicer quality product that you only have to worry about once. How much more are you really going to save just because you buy a knock off product that has a chance that is bad quality? You will probably end up buying the real thing after or just get another one and have it happen again. The result of all this is now that if you want to buy parts from say HKS expect to now have to pay more for shipping and taking it a lot longer then usual.

The quality isnt always top notch and of course you will always find some people who like them but that is how almost all companies are. Look at Monster HDMI cords for example. No matter what people say things to another person that a cheap HDMI cord is the same as your 1000 dollar Monster Cord they still refuse to listen and think they are better then those cheaper cords that do the same exact thing. That just goes to show you there always will be people who support companies even though they have horrible business practices. Their always will be a 1-2 people out of 10 who like a company even though if they arent viewed as a good one by people.

If you cant afford a quality part you can always buy from other companies who dont charge as much and still get good gains/quality. Maybe not as good but sometimes more money doesnt mean its always better. Either way you do it right the first time and not support companies who are the ones who have no respect for our scene, who dont put proper research and thought regarding performance/safety. People who continue to support those companies IMO will eventually make it a lot worse for others in the scene.

http://www.importtuner.com/tech/0612...s/viewall.html
Here is one about safety/warranties also.


Edit:
Their is a difference between a reputable company and a company that just makes knock offs of those companies. Big difference

[arghx7]

Well that's a can of worms you just opened.

Lots of parts are built in China from reputable companies. Lots of aftermarket parts are copied from OEM designs or just rebadged & slightly modified OEM parts. So who copies whom? Perfect example--port injectors from Injector Dynamics. They're modified Bosch parts. And how about all the aftermarket pistons for direct injection that copy the OEM piston bowl design?

The reason why HK$ pulled their office out of the USA is that HKS, Greddy, and Apex'i don't make a whole lot of parts that people want anymore. I mean clearly people are still buying some exhaust and suspension parts for newer vehicles, but those companies are coasting off their 90s products. Newer and more nimble companies are serving the market better. Most of the Vendors on this forum aren't anywhere near as established as those companies.

And it's stupid expensive to buy parts made in Japan, which is why most (in terms of volume) "Japanese" cars sold in North America are built here using a North American supply network.

[@Art_Mighty]

I'm honestly beginning to hate the Chinese. Check out this scary developing story about counterfeit Chinese airbags:

http://jalopnik.com/5950562/watch-a-...-someones-face

http://www.nhtsa.gov/About+NHTSA/Pre...rfeit+Air+Bags

http://www.foxnews.com/leisure/2012/...feit-air-bags/

Car owners whose air bags have been replaced in the past three years may have had dangerous counterfeit bags installed...

...industry officials briefed by the government said tens of thousands of car owners may be driving vehicles with counterfeit air bags. NHTSA testing has shown most of the counterfeit bags don't inflate or fail to inflate properly. In at least one case, a counterfeit bag fired shards of metal shrapnel on impact, the agency said.

Counterfeiting of a wide variety of auto parts has long been a well-known problem, industry officials said. But recent incidents have escalated concern by government officials. In August, federal agents confiscated nearly 1,600 counterfeit air bags and arrested a North Carolina auto mechanic, according to a report by the Charlotte Observer. The mechanic was tied by federal officials to another counterfeit air bag case last year in Tennessee, the report said.
Last February, Dai Zhensong, a Chinese citizen, pleaded guilty and was sentenced in federal court in Chattanooga, Tenn., to 37 months in prison for trafficking in counterfeit air bags, according to a statement made at the time by the U.S. Attorney's Office.

Zhensong was a part owner and manager of the international department of Guangzhou Auto Parts, which made a variety of auto parts, many of which were counterfeit, the statement said. In 2010, he traveled from China to Chattanooga to sell additional counterfeit air bags and other auto parts. The counterfeit air bags were manufactured by purchasing genuine auto air bags that were torn down and used to make molds to produce the counterfeit bags. Trademark emblems were purchased through Honda, Toyota, Audi, BMW and other dealerships located in China and affixed to the counterfeit air bags. The air bags were advertised on the Guangzhou Auto Parts website and sold for approximately $50 to $70 each, far below the value of an authentic air bag, the statement said.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tXHn_zSW3rg"]NHTSA's Video on Counterfeit Chinese Airbags - YouTube[/ame]

And just in case you're interested here's the link where you can actually buy this crap.

http://gzhs1369.en.made-in-china.com

[showbe]

Originally Posted by arghx7

Well that's a can of worms you just opened.

Lots of parts are built in China from reputable companies. Lots of aftermarket parts are copied from OEM designs or just rebadged & slightly modified OEM parts. So who copies whom? Perfect example--port injectors from Injector Dynamics. They're modified Bosch parts. And how about all the aftermarket pistons for direct injection that copy the OEM piston bowl design?

The reason why HK$ pulled their office out of the USA is that HKS, Greddy, and Apex'i don't make a whole lot of parts that people want anymore. I mean clearly people are still buying some exhaust and suspension parts for newer vehicles, but those companies are coasting off their 90s products. Newer and more nimble companies are serving the market better. Most of the Vendors on this forum aren't anywhere near as established as those companies.

And it's stupid expensive to buy parts made in Japan, which is why most (in terms of volume) "Japanese" cars sold in North America are built here using a North American supply network.

I am not just talking about just HKS that is an example of one of many companies who are being bitten off of. People can do the proper R&D then send it to China for it to be made and be an excellent product. I am not saying that parts made in China can always be bad. I am saying companies who copy from those companies who spend the proper amount of time/money to make them are the devils.

Their is a difference between a reputable company and a company that just makes knock offs of those companies.

Totally opposite of what your saying. HKS isnt the only company. Their are other companies who have gone under and dissapeared because of knock offs putting them out of business.

[arghx7]

What is your definition of a knock off? I mean this is almost a philosophical question.

If somebody is copying many aspects of somebody's design, but uses different materials or processes to make it cheaper, is it a knock off? Where do you draw the line? Which one's the better part, the one that people can afford with possibly less durability or the one that people can't afford? Does one company own the rights to the length of an intake pipe or the shape of a flange?

Originally Posted by showbe

I am saying companies who copy from those companies who spend the proper amount of time/money to make them are the devils.

I'm going to go back to my piston bowl example again. Take a look at practically every Mahle piston marketed for aftermarket performance applications on direct injection engines. They have almost the exact same piston bowls as OEM, depending on the application. I've had this discussion with Mahle performance parts reps at car shows. A rep told me straight up that they try to copy the stock design as much as possible. Do you have any idea how much money it costed for the OEM to design and test that piston bowl? Now if I were Mahle, I'd do the same thing. They can't afford to design their own for such a low-volume application.

How about exhaust parts that copy the OEM design, but delete cats and in some cases flex pipes and other parts that cost money? Or if you've got two aftermarket turbo manifolds that put the turbo in the same place, who's copying whom? Maybe it's the guy who came out with the manifold second. Or maybe there's only so many ways to do it. Did Leibniz invent calculus, or did Newton? You can carry this argument over to smartphone interfaces and all sorts of other types of modern technology.

I hate to break it to you, but aftermarket stuff are all knockoffs to some extent or another. ECUtek is a much cheaper aftermarket knock off of ETAS INCA or dSpace ControlDesk or whatever other much more expensive tool Toyota is using to tune the stock ECU. They all reverse engineer and copy each other's stuff when you start tracing the supply chain.

[Calidrifter]

This thread is not going to stop anyone from buying replica anything.

But a good lesson to know is never buy anything electronic from China. Hell, even the tour guy in China told my parents that when they visited in March/April of this year.

[scyzer]

Originally Posted by @Art_Mighty

I'm honestly beginning to hate the Chinese.

I agree that the Chinese produce a large number of dodgy goods and would like that add that the real issue isn't about the quality of the items they produce but rather the demand that brings those items onto foreign shores.

Using your example, the only reason dangerous counterfeit air-bags have made it onto US domestic vehicles is due to someone (who most likely knew that they were purchasing counterfeit safety products) deciding to purchase them anyway.

Your hate shouldn't be directed at the Chinese - who will produce basically anything to the cost/quality they're asked to - but rather those individuals who consciously choose these dangerous goods.

[Kodename47]

I think you're missing the point massively!

Originally Posted by arghx7

I'm going to go back to my piston bowl example again. Take a look at practically every Mahle piston marketed for aftermarket performance applications on direct injection engines. They have almost the exact same piston bowls as OEM, depending on the application. I've had this discussion with Mahle performance parts reps at car shows. A rep told me straight up that they try to copy the stock design as much as possible. Do you have any idea how much money it costed for the OEM to design and test that piston bowl? Now if I were Mahle, I'd do the same thing. They can't afford to design their own for such a low-volume application.

This is true, but Mahle use the designs as the OEM patterns are R&D'd well and will probably be best for the engine. That's not to say that they don't do any form of testing of their own. These aren't knock offs. The same can be said for the ECU stuff.

What I think this boils down to isn't similar products as you keep hinting. What the OP is on about is what is happening a lot in China which are direct, but poor quality, copies. For god sake, I've seen a fake egg made in chine (it was toxic, btw). They will take, say, a TRD seat, replicate it poorly, make it look exactly the same as the TRD seat, usually with the logos and everything and then sell it at a much lower price. Same happens with manifolds, trims, exhausts. The problem lies in the fact that they don't care how well it's made, or if it's even safe. I've seen manifolds that look the same as a well know reputable brand, even has the logo stamped on it, but it was made out of poor grade metal and the welds were cheap. It would have lasted a fraction of the time of the real product even though it "looked" the same.

[Kodename47]

Originally Posted by scyzer

I agree that the Chinese produce a large number of dodgy goods and would like that add that the real issue isn't about the quality of the items they produce but rather the demand that brings those items onto foreign shores.

Using your example, the only reason dangerous counterfeit air-bags have made it onto US domestic vehicles is due to someone (who most likely knew that they were purchasing counterfeit safety products) deciding to purchase them anyway.

Your hate shouldn't be directed at the Chinese - who will produce basically anything to the cost/quality they're asked to - but rather those individuals who consciously choose these dangerous goods.

^^^ This is exactly the point!!! But the problem is people will see it as a way to make easy money if they think they can get away with it. It's scarey to see the amount of knock off goods coming into the UK and the things that are being copied. Pretty much anything..... popular alcohol is being faked here now, and it's pretty dangerous but not all that easy to spot!!

[serialk11r]

Originally Posted by Kodename47

I think you're missing the point massively!

This is true, but Mahle use the designs as the OEM patterns are R&D'd well and will probably be best for the engine. That's not to say that they don't do any form of testing of their own. These aren't knock offs. The same can be said for the ECU stuff.

What I think this boils down to isn't similar products as you keep hinting. What the OP is on about is what is happening a lot in China which are direct, but poor quality, copies. For god sake, I've seen a fake egg made in chine (it was toxic, btw). They will take, say, a TRD seat, replicate it poorly, make it look exactly the same as the TRD seat, usually with the logos and everything and then sell it at a much lower price. Same happens with manifolds, trims, exhausts. The problem lies in the fact that they don't care how well it's made, or if it's even safe. I've seen manifolds that look the same as a well know reputable brand, even has the logo stamped on it, but it was made out of poor grade metal and the welds were cheap. It would have lasted a fraction of the time of the real product even though it "looked" the same.

I have a bit of trouble seeing the difference between arghx7's pistons example and these direct knock offs. First of all it takes quite a bit of effort to make it look aesthetically similar to the point where it's not distinguishable, so I'll ignore the cases where they stamp the logos on and attempt to sell it as the real thing. When someone buys a critical component that's fake, then either it's an exceptionally good fake so that people can't tell the difference, or someone (up the supply chain) intentionally purchased them without making sure they were legitimate or did it just to rip people off.

Now moving onto the case where it's a replica of something simple, but sold as their own. You can make an exhaust pipe that is a "copy" of someone elses', but out of a cheaper material. If you don't test it you run the risk of putting into mass production something that can fail easily, and eventually people will notice, and you could be screwed. At the end of the day, an exhaust pipe (or even headers) is a pretty simple component and there's only so many ways to do it. Like arghx7 said, can anyone own the length of a header or shape of a flange?

What's the difference between Mahle copying an OEM design and aftermarket companies copying each other? OEM spends many orders of magnitude of money on R&D more for just about anything at all. It can't be because Mahle's product quality is good, otherwise it would be okay for some company to copy another company's design but make it a little better.

[Kodename47]

OK, so I think that the OP is refering to fakes as knock offs. Hence supporting them isn't a great idea. It is also a good case of warning, as not all fakes would be easy to spot! Fake seats could be potentially fatal in a crash when real one could save a life. Fake components could and usually will fail easily. Things like manifolds aren't likely to cause much damage if they fail, but if you didn't know you were buying a fake and then the exhaust dropped off after 6 months of driving..... You get my point. Also the fake won't flow as well due to the welds sticking into the inside of the tubing, and the bends will generally be rubbish.

The other point on aftermarket tuners using similar designs doesn't really belong here. They're not knock offs. Is it suprising that tuning companies and OEM use similar designs as there's only so many ways that things can be done on an engine? But there are variations that are designed that way. The Mahle example is a little mute, as the piston dome example clearly shows that they know what is best for the engine, not just copying for the sake of it. What's to say the rest of the design hasn't been altered by them in any way? If they're OEM replacement ones then they'd have to be the same anyway, but made in the correct way and with the right quality controls. They would be copies, but not fakes.

[Rayme]

The meaning behind the thinking is right but the fact remains that people will buy what they can afford. And that doesn't mean they would buy the more expensive parts in the first place even if there wasn't a cheaper knock-off version to buy instead.

If I wanted some nice volks wheel I could go and spend 3000$. But sorry, I'm not that wealthy, so i'll never buy them regardless of me wanting to support a certain company. Id probably buy rotas or something more affordable.

[Jeff86]

Originally Posted by ottopilot

The meaning behind the thinking is right but the fact remains that people will buy what they can afford. And that doesn't mean they would buy the more expensive parts in the first place even if there wasn't a cheaper knock-off version to buy instead.

If I wanted some nice volks wheel I could go and spend 3000$. But sorry, I'm not that wealthy, so i'll never buy them regardless of me wanting to support a certain company. Id probably buy rotas or something more affordable.

Why not buy great affordable wheels that aren't knock offs? You bought a great affordable sports car that was an original. You didn't buy a fake Lamborghini.

[Rayme]

Originally Posted by Jeff86

Why not buy great affordable wheels that aren't knock offs? You bought a great affordable sports car that was an original. You didn't buy a fake Lamborghini.

Why? Because I buy what I want. The core of the debate is how it "hurts" companies, even if I buy a rota wheel that would be their own design, I would still not buy from Volks.

And I could care less about what people say about "fake wheel". It's my money.