vs. 128i

[Packofcrows]

100 series v6, idk if they make diff trims, but that car is heavy as heck! Test drove those in '08/'09 as a candidate vs a TT quatro and neither made me like 'em. Only one that worked was the old M3 series but it sold for like 36k.

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by cal

bump...

So now that the FR-S/BRZ has been out a few years, what are owner's impressions of their FRS/BRZ in terms of reliability (which was one of the supposed advantages of it over the BMW)? I'm now choosing between these two as well

Forums always trick you into 'the sky is falling' because the number of 'omg it's broken' posts will always outweigh the 'yup another month with no issues' posts. How much of the BMW forums are you reading? I'd bet they have some issues too.

I think there's a few factors that would play into the 'which would be easier to live with' game that it seems you're in. How long do you plan to own it? Do you plan to autox/track it? Modify it? Road trips?

If it's a car you see yourself owning for <5 years (ok maybe a few more if you are happy with it and grow accustomed to the maintenance and general upkeep and future potential problems but you can decide that later) and you have no intention of track/autox or modify, I'd take the BMW hands down, it'll be a blast off the showroom floor and do everything well.

If it's a car you plan on changing and driving hard or for a long time, odds are warranty is out the window, you'll be paying out of pocket for many repairs, services, and upgrades to keep it in reliable shape. The 86's strong aftermarket and low running costs are a winner.

Odds are you'll want a mix between the two, neither will do you wrong. I've had my 86 for 43k miles, almost 3 years, about a dozen autocrosses, 6 full track days and the only issue so far has been coilpack failures, a little over $100 and an hour or so of labor in my driveway.

[cal]

strat61caster, Jaylyons1, Packofcrows, juliog, 86Tony,

(I guess I'm still new here and can't give you guys a "Thanks") In any case, thanks all for your input!

Originally Posted by Jaylyons1

I haven't seen too many of those issues you mentioned cal. There will always be one-offs here and there. Most of the issues I have been seeing were from boosted cars.

The 128i is a great platform. I'm just not a fan of the look. Performance between the two is debatable and I'm glad you mentioned that the I6 is reliable, because everyone seems to think otherwise which isn't true.

I've not owned a 128i but I have owned a few other bimmers and they don't seem to keep me as entertained as the BRZ for some unforeseen reason. I just ticked the 3 year mark recently and I haven't had a single issue that wasn't covered by a TSB.

I'm actually quite disappointed that I have to sell mine next month because it's been such a great car, but I will have plenty of other cars in Australia to keep me entertained.

That's good to know. The ones that really bother me are the throwout bearings and the rod bearings issues. The threads listed in the "Issues" forum are numerous with plenty of members having them, thus my worries on this car. Hopefully, Subaru has made enhancements "quietly" to these issues on the newer models (or there's TSBs for them), but that'll remain to be seen. Good point on this being more prevalent on modded/boosted cars, although a few members do claim that they were stock (especially on the throw-out bearing issue). Sad to hear you're getting rid of your car, but hopefully you'll be back in a BRZ again in the future.

Originally Posted by strat61caster

Forums always trick you into 'the sky is falling' because the number of 'omg it's broken' posts will always outweigh the 'yup another month with no issues' posts. How much of the BMW forums are you reading? I'd bet they have some issues too.

I think there's a few factors that would play into the 'which would be easier to live with' game that it seems you're in. How long do you plan to own it? Do you plan to autox/track it? Modify it? Road trips?

If it's a car you see yourself owning for <5 years (ok maybe a few more if you are happy with it and grow accustomed to the maintenance and general upkeep and future potential problems but you can decide that later) and you have no intention of track/autox or modify, I'd take the BMW hands down, it'll be a blast off the showroom floor and do everything well.

If it's a car you plan on changing and driving hard or for a long time, odds are warranty is out the window, you'll be paying out of pocket for many repairs, services, and upgrades to keep it in reliable shape. The 86's strong aftermarket and low running costs are a winner.

Odds are you'll want a mix between the two, neither will do you wrong. I've had my 86 for 43k miles, almost 3 years, about a dozen autocrosses, 6 full track days and the only issue so far has been coilpack failures, a little over $100 and an hour or so of labor in my driveway.

Thanks for the feedback. Yes, forums are always the places where issues are overblown. Having owned many bmws from a 98 M3 to a most recent 15 M235i, I'm in a lot of BMW forums as well and the same thing applies. BMWs are well known for having mediocre reliability and expensive repairs, and I'm fully aware of that and have experience with that too (although rod bearings and throwout bearings are really unheard of here). The turbo 135i is the one with most issues ranging for injectors ($1k), turbos ($2k), and HPFP, but BMW stepped up their game and extended the warranty on those items (HPFP covered for 12yrs/120k, turbos 8yrs/82k miles). The 128i has none of those issues, and thus why I would chose this over the 135i. In BMW forums, members have come to accept the "you gotta pay to play" motto, and if you want a reliable car, go Japanese. I've always heard that Subarus are quite reliable (although not quite Honda/Toyota level), so I was quite shocked to see these expensive/mechanical issues on the FRS/BRZ. Granted, this is a new platform, so some issues are to be expected, just not these major issues. Like I said, I don't mind taillight condensation/rattles/crickets etc, but things that will leave me stranded or require thousands in repair, those I do. Also, I plan to keep this car long-term (>5 yrs), and that's why I care about reliability and maintenance costs. Otherwise, if I was keeping this short term, I could care less and bring it in to the dealer and get it fixed for free and get a loaner. (Ok, I realize this is where the BMW under warranty may be nicer as they always give you a loaner, while I'm reading here that many Subaru dealers may not and sometimes try to get owners to pay for issues under warranty. Again, probably over-blown one-off scenarios, but will leave it a that). I also plan to use it as a daily driver with the occasional weekend mountain-carving drive, so in some ways, both of these would fit the bill nicely. There are many things I like in the BRZ better (shorter throw shifter, shorter clutch travel, quicker steering, flatter handling, seating position), but other things I like in the BMW better (usable space, nicer interior, more usable power). As you've nicely said, "Odds are you'll want a mix between the two, neither will do you wrong". To make it even harder for me and with the price being nearly identical, it has come down (personally) to which will give me less headaches and cost less LONG-term past warranty period. For example, at 120K+ miles, the oil pan gasket in the BMW will need replacement when oil leaks start, and will cost ~$1500 to replace. A water pump/thermostat will run me another $1k at around the same mileage interval. In the BRZ case, if (and if) the throwout bearing does fail out of warranty, it would cost me ~2k to replace. Not sure if water pumps and oil leaks are issues on these cars and how much they cost to replace/fix at a local indy, so I'm hoping these aren't issues. (I'm only a DIY for oil/brake/plugs/fluid changes. Other major stuff would go to a mechanic.)

Finally, I just wanted to say that I thought I preferred the BMW community and forums due to the vast amount of enthusiasts, after market support, etc, that I've encountered in the past 2 decades of BMW ownership, but after having spent a couple of weeks here, I'm noticing that the FT86 community and aftermarket support meets and even surpasses the BMW support (especially in aftermarket support). I'm amazed at how knowledgeable members here are about their cars, and how many members do things and work on their cars that many with BMWs wouldn't even dare touch. (Transmission work, etc). Maybe that's just a testament as to how easy these cars are to work with.

[CatDaddysBBQ]

I own both. The 86 is mine, and my wife drives the 128. Hers is an auto but I've driven a manual one (contemplated it before I bought the fr-S)

Here is what I can tell you:

It's a great "all arounder" car. It's more comfortable, has a much better engine, a great trunk and slightly more usable back seat. The build quality is far better. The paint seems 6x thicker. It'd be an amazing DD - fun enough to be special, but as comfortable as you'd ever need.

However, I don't put it in the same league as a "sports car" as the 86.

The body control, the balance, the handling, the steering and the reaponsiveness are in another world than the BMW. Don't get me wrong, the BMW is great, just not amazing at those things.

You could spend a few grand on an 86 and make it faster in a straight line than the 128, but no amount of money would mKe the BMW a true lightweight sports car.

My 128 is an auto, non-m sport and doesn't have a LSD. I realize all of these things would make it better, but that's a much more expensive 128. And that would still not handle and turn as well as an 86 with better tires.

Her car would kill mine on the highway, but in any kind of "real" driving it wouldn't stand a chance against my car. I brought hers to autoX once and it was.... Amusing. It needed a 400lb diet, better seats (and the aforementioned manual trans and lsd) before it could consider being as good as my fr-S.

If you want a responsive sports car, buy the 86. If you just want a cool car to cruise around in and park? Buy the BMW.

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by cal

I'm amazed at how knowledgeable members here are about their cars, and how many members do things and work on their cars that many with BMWs wouldn't even dare touch. (Transmission work, etc). Maybe that's just a testament as to how easy these cars are to work with.

Definitely a different mindset, if my throwout bearing goes I'm replacing it myself, I was changing brake pads monthly between street and track/autocross and I've done all my own maintenance over my 3 years of ownership (6 services?). If I blew my engine up I'd try rebuilding it myself, I've known one BMW guy who has done it and would do it again on his cars and he's a master tech. My dad has a new mini, the thing tries to outsmart you, I don't like it.

It sounds like you're not looking to run it super hard, I'd say go on long test drives of both, something more crucial like the steering feel or NVH or seat comfort will matter more in day to day use than the chance of being the 1/1,000 person that gets the catastrophic issue.

[cal]

Originally Posted by CatDaddysBBQ

I own both. The 86 is mine, and my wife drives the 128. Hers is an auto but I've driven a manual one (contemplated it before I bought the fr-S)

Here is what I can tell you:

It's a great "all arounder" car. It's more comfortable, has a much better engine, a great trunk and slightly more usable back seat. The build quality is far better. The paint seems 6x thicker. It'd be an amazing DD - fun enough to be special, but as comfortable as you'd ever need.

However, I don't put it in the same league as a "sports car" as the 86.

The body control, the balance, the handling, the steering and the reaponsiveness are in another world than the BMW. Don't get me wrong, the BMW is great, just not amazing at those things.

You could spend a few grand on an 86 and make it faster in a straight line than the 128, but no amount of money would mKe the BMW a true lightweight sports car.

My 128 is an auto, non-m sport and doesn't have a LSD. I realize all of these things would make it better, but that's a much more expensive 128. And that would still not handle and turn as well as an 86 with better tires.

Her car would kill mine on the highway, but in any kind of "real" driving it wouldn't stand a chance against my car. I brought hers to autoX once and it was.... Amusing. It needed a 400lb diet, better seats (and the aforementioned manual trans and lsd) before it could consider being as good as my fr-S.

If you want a responsive sports car, buy the 86. If you just want a cool car to cruise around in and park? Buy the BMW.

Great points, thank you! I am only considering a manual M-Sport 128i, and although that makes the car much more exciting to drive than a non-sport auto one, it's still not a lightweight sports car as the BRZ. But as you stated, what it gives up to the BRZ it makes up for it in other areas.

Originally Posted by strat61caster

It sounds like you're not looking to run it super hard, I'd say go on long test drives of both, something more crucial like the steering feel or NVH or seat comfort will matter more in day to day use than the chance of being the 1/1,000 person that gets the catastrophic issue.

Great advice. Yes, the car won't be tracked or auto crossed, but if I did, the BRZ would be my clear choice. (The 128i would require lots of mods, even in M-sport trim, to make it as nice at the track as the BRZ.) I will take both again on longer test drives to see which appeals to me the most for day to day use. I must admit that during the short test drives I've done with both, I preferred the BRZ hands-down. The moment I rolled off the lot and heard the loud boxer engine and all the road-noise around me, I was immediately in love with the car and said "sports car" feel. The shifter was a short-throw one compared to the BMW, the seating position much lower with more supportive seats, the clutch had a really short travel, etc. This car didn't need any Active Sound like my previous BMW had (and needed) in order to hear it's engine. Cornering on off-ramps where completely flat, unlike the 128i where there was noticeable (yet predictable) body roll. I really enjoyed the 10 minute test-drive, but I'll need to evaluate how I would feel about it with a daily 70 mile roundtrip commute, etc.

Thanks again!

[SVTSHC]

Originally Posted by cal

strat61caster, Jaylyons1, Packofcrows, juliog, 86Tony,

(I guess I'm still new here and can't give you guys a "Thanks") In any case, thanks all for your input!



That's good to know. The ones that really bother me are the throwout bearings and the rod bearings issues. The threads listed in the "Issues" forum are numerous with plenty of members having them, thus my worries on this car. Hopefully, Subaru has made enhancements "quietly" to these issues on the newer models (or there's TSBs for them), but that'll remain to be seen. Good point on this being more prevalent on modded/boosted cars, although a few members do claim that they were stock (especially on the throw-out bearing issue). Sad to hear you're getting rid of your car, but hopefully you'll be back in a BRZ again in the future.



Thanks for the feedback. Yes, forums are always the places where issues are overblown. Having owned many bmws from a 98 M3 to a most recent 15 M235i, I'm in a lot of BMW forums as well and the same thing applies. BMWs are well known for having mediocre reliability and expensive repairs, and I'm fully aware of that and have experience with that too (although rod bearings and throwout bearings are really unheard of here). The turbo 135i is the one with most issues ranging for injectors ($1k), turbos ($2k), and HPFP, but BMW stepped up their game and extended the warranty on those items (HPFP covered for 12yrs/120k, turbos 8yrs/82k miles). The 128i has none of those issues, and thus why I would chose this over the 135i. In BMW forums, members have come to accept the "you gotta pay to play" motto, and if you want a reliable car, go Japanese. I've always heard that Subarus are quite reliable (although not quite Honda/Toyota level), so I was quite shocked to see these expensive/mechanical issues on the FRS/BRZ. Granted, this is a new platform, so some issues are to be expected, just not these major issues. Like I said, I don't mind taillight condensation/rattles/crickets etc, but things that will leave me stranded or require thousands in repair, those I do. Also, I plan to keep this car long-term (>5 yrs), and that's why I care about reliability and maintenance costs. Otherwise, if I was keeping this short term, I could care less and bring it in to the dealer and get it fixed for free and get a loaner. (Ok, I realize this is where the BMW under warranty may be nicer as they always give you a loaner, while I'm reading here that many Subaru dealers may not and sometimes try to get owners to pay for issues under warranty. Again, probably over-blown one-off scenarios, but will leave it a that). I also plan to use it as a daily driver with the occasional weekend mountain-carving drive, so in some ways, both of these would fit the bill nicely. There are many things I like in the BRZ better (shorter throw shifter, shorter clutch travel, quicker steering, flatter handling, seating position), but other things I like in the BMW better (usable space, nicer interior, more usable power). As you've nicely said, "Odds are you'll want a mix between the two, neither will do you wrong". To make it even harder for me and with the price being nearly identical, it has come down (personally) to which will give me less headaches and cost less LONG-term past warranty period. For example, at 120K+ miles, the oil pan gasket in the BMW will need replacement when oil leaks start, and will cost ~$1500 to replace. A water pump/thermostat will run me another $1k at around the same mileage interval. In the BRZ case, if (and if) the throwout bearing does fail out of warranty, it would cost me ~2k to replace. Not sure if water pumps and oil leaks are issues on these cars and how much they cost to replace/fix at a local indy, so I'm hoping these aren't issues. (I'm only a DIY for oil/brake/plugs/fluid changes. Other major stuff would go to a mechanic.)

Finally, I just wanted to say that I thought I preferred the BMW community and forums due to the vast amount of enthusiasts, after market support, etc, that I've encountered in the past 2 decades of BMW ownership, but after having spent a couple of weeks here, I'm noticing that the FT86 community and aftermarket support meets and even surpasses the BMW support (especially in aftermarket support). I'm amazed at how knowledgeable members here are about their cars, and how many members do things and work on their cars that many with BMWs wouldn't even dare touch. (Transmission work, etc). Maybe that's just a testament as to how easy these cars are to work with.

I won't lie to you. BMW doesn't make it easy for their cars to be worked on outside of the dealership these days. Between programming, general integration level updates, special tools, the need for random initializations that fail manual initialization, the complete lack of available oem replacement parts for things like intrusive transmission work... and on and on and on. You can do your own work but it's starts to get pricey even doing that these days.
I have a feeling that as we move into the future that's going to be the route all cars will be taking, sure there will still be work-around options but maybe that'll be pricey also. Maybe it'll be the strong re-emergence of standalone shops as a solid option... someone will always find a way to do it cheaper. Who knows, but I digress..

Everyone has been saying pretty much the same thing. The BMW would be the better car for short term/non-abusive ownership. Can it take some of the battery? Sure. Can it take it as well as the twins? Yes and No. Are the twins the better car for the enthusiast. Undeniably so. Is the 128i (now the 228i to be honest) the more practical and comfortable answer. Yup, but everything at a cost.

When I think of what I would like out of my FRS/BRZ as far as creature comforts go... the only thing I end up designing in my head is a Porsche

[CatDaddysBBQ]

Originally Posted by cal

Yes, the car won't be tracked or auto crossed, but if I did, the BRZ would be my clear choice.

Thanks again!

This is the tipping point. If I didn't do either in mine, I would rather have the 128 all day long. There is no time wasted deciding which car goes on a road trip, lol. You've definitely got your solution. Enjoy! The baby "Bimmer" is a great car.

[dpgfunk]

\o/

[ReggiekW]

I picked up a 128i after my '15 frs died. It's different to be sure. The steering on my model is not electric assist and the fatter tires plus run flat made it feel less nimble than the frs. But it certainly gripped going around corners on the accelerator. The thing I enjoy more about the 128i is the torque. But I miss the precise and nimble handling of the frs.

[Mim]

Originally Posted by ReggiekW

I picked up a 128i after my '15 frs died. It's different to be sure. The steering on my model is not electric assist and the fatter tires plus run flat made it feel less nimble than the frs. But it certainly gripped going around corners on the accelerator. The thing I enjoy more about the 128i is the torque. But I miss the precise and nimble handling of the frs.

I hear a lot of people swapping their tires out for non run flats made a really positive improvement to feel. Something to consider when you wear out that first set perhaps.