Square or Staggered? - Page 2 - Toyota GR86, 86, FR-S and Subaru BRZ Forum & Owners Community

Ryephile · 02-01-2012, 05:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blur

A car this oversteer happy isn't going to be easy to control after it has 600 hp.

I have yet to read a media review where they actually call the car "oversteer happy". They say the car is balanced, yet is easily controllable when the driver induces a drift.

We're talking about a car that has 200 HP. We're not discussing Corvette ZR1's et al.

blur · 02-01-2012, 07:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryephile

I have yet to read a media review where they actually call the car "oversteer happy". They say the car is balanced, yet is easily controllable when the driver induces a drift.

We're talking about a car that has 200 HP. We're not discussing Corvette ZR1's et al.

I quoted Dave who was talking about a turbocharged 86. I'm not sure why you think I'm talking about the stock configuration.

Easily controllable STOCK.

Besides, have you seen Ken Gushi's FR-S? already in the ball park of 600 hp, and the car hasn't even came out yet. So it's been done and and it will be done again. I'll bet Gushi's not running a square setup.

Edit: looks to be that way.

Front- 19x8.5-inch (+45mm) w/ Hankook Ventus V12 EVO 225/35ZR19
Rear - 19x9.5-inch (+35mm) w/ Hankook Ventus V12 EVO 245/35ZR19

coyote · 02-01-2012, 07:19 PM

Under 300hp, square.

300-400hp, who knows.

Over 400hp, staggered.

Dimman · 02-01-2012, 08:33 PM

I think that Scion may be happy if a lot of RWD noobs get this car and go staggered for the RWD/drift look. More understeer = less wrecks.

ZDan · 02-01-2012, 08:44 PM

I think people tend to greatly overestimate the effects of staggered vs. non-staggered. Camber and toe settings will have a more profound effect on handling balance than stagger. But then this car won't have front camber adjustment, will it. Doh...

fatoni · 02-01-2012, 09:22 PM

im going to say that staggering in a car that wasnt designed like that is a bad idea. i guess it can be done but greddy can kind of get away with things because they can make car parts. nobody posting on this forum is going to figure out objectively how that is changing what is happening and how they should design suspension to allow for it

old greg · 02-01-2012, 09:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fatoni

nobody posting on this forum is going to figure out objectively how that is changing what is happening and how they should design suspension to allow for it

I really doubt that. There are a few guys on this forum (myself included) that I would be very surprised to see not do exactly that.

ZDan · 02-01-2012, 09:34 PM

PLENTY of people on these forums are perfectly capable of tuning suspension parameters to deal with handling changes with a staggered setup.
Plenty of us WILL figure out, objectively, what is happening to the balance and will know how to optimize setup to take advantage of whatever tires we fit.

Getting good handling balance isn't rocket surgery. And 20-30mm stagger isn't going to make as huge a difference as you might think.

That said, I don't see any benefit to going staggered, unless it's not possible to fit wider tires up front.

coyote · 02-01-2012, 09:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZDan

I think people tend to greatly overestimate the effects of staggered vs. non-staggered. Camber and toe settings will have a more profound effect on handling balance than stagger. But then this car won't have front camber adjustment, will it. Doh...

Lower strut mounts will likely has eccentric bolts from factory and of course you will be able to get or make adjustable tops.

ZDan · 02-01-2012, 09:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by coyote

Lower strut mounts will likely has eccentric bolts from factory and of course you will be able to get or make adjustable tops.

I'll be pleasantly surprised if it's adjustable. If not, of course there are other ways...

old greg · 02-01-2012, 09:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by coyote

Lower strut mounts will likely has eccentric bolts from factory and of course you will be able to get or make adjustable tops.

I think camber plates are going to be a pretty common upgrade.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MotoIQ.com

No provision for camber or caster adjustment is present on the stock car, at least this stock prototype

http://www.motoiq.com/magazine_artic...cion-fr-s.aspx

Ryephile · 02-01-2012, 10:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blur

Besides, have you seen Ken Gushi's FR-S? already in the ball park of 600 hp, and the car hasn't even came out yet. So it's been done and and it will be done again. I'll bet Gushi's not running a square setup.

Yes, because "everyone" will be running a boosted-to-the-moon EJ25 within minutes of signing their 6 year loan.

The OP didn't mention such absurd context, and Dave was making fun of such lunacy.

coyote · 02-01-2012, 10:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by old greg

I think camber plates are going to be a pretty common upgrade.

I think you're right, but I'm not so sure they will be necessary on anything that isn't wearing slicks.

This car has very different specs to those that the usual back yard racer is used to.

old greg · 02-01-2012, 10:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by coyote

I think you're right, but I'm not so sure they will be necessary on anything that isn't wearing slicks.

This car has very different specs to those that the usual back yard racer is used to.

I meant it more in the sense that there are apparently no eccentric camber bolts in the front suspension.

02-01-2012, 07:19 PM	#17
coyote Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2011 Drives: Slowly Location: brisbane.qld.au Posts: 1,064 Thanks: 212 Thanked 539 Times in 235 Posts Mentioned: 21 Post(s) Tagged: 1 Thread(s)	Under 300hp, square. 300-400hp, who knows. Over 400hp, staggered.

02-01-2012, 08:44 PM	#19
ZDan Senior Member Join Date: May 2011 Drives: '23 BRZ Location: Providence, RI Posts: 4,584 Thanks: 1,377 Thanked 3,891 Times in 2,032 Posts Mentioned: 85 Post(s) Tagged: 0 Thread(s)	I think people tend to greatly overestimate the effects of staggered vs. non-staggered. Camber and toe settings will have a more profound effect on handling balance than stagger. But then this car won't have front camber adjustment, will it. Doh...

02-01-2012, 09:22 PM	#20
fatoni Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Drives: miata, mazdaspeed protege, ls430 Location: socal Posts: 4,416 Thanks: 599 Thanked 1,442 Times in 787 Posts Mentioned: 28 Post(s) Tagged: 0 Thread(s)	im going to say that staggering in a car that wasnt designed like that is a bad idea. i guess it can be done but greddy can kind of get away with things because they can make car parts. nobody posting on this forum is going to figure out objectively how that is changing what is happening and how they should design suspension to allow for it

02-01-2012, 09:34 PM	#22
ZDan Senior Member Join Date: May 2011 Drives: '23 BRZ Location: Providence, RI Posts: 4,584 Thanks: 1,377 Thanked 3,891 Times in 2,032 Posts Mentioned: 85 Post(s) Tagged: 0 Thread(s)	PLENTY of people on these forums are perfectly capable of tuning suspension parameters to deal with handling changes with a staggered setup. Plenty of us WILL figure out, objectively, what is happening to the balance and will know how to optimize setup to take advantage of whatever tires we fit. Getting good handling balance isn't rocket surgery. And 20-30mm stagger isn't going to make as huge a difference as you might think. That said, I don't see any benefit to going staggered, unless it's not possible to fit wider tires up front.

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