KW V3 autocross set-up thread

[silversprint]

The KW v3 doesn't not have a huge following in autox because the shock valving doesn't have a whole lot of low speed damping. The V3 is valved with linear rebound for street comfort.

They work ok for the track by they are almost always too soft.

I would wait for the AST or Ohlins.

[Sam Strano]

Autox is somthing I know a littl about. I'm quite happy with my KW's. Then again it sems the world thinks you need tricky shocks to win vs good shocks. I've had, and sell other stuff inluding some mentioned. And you know.... I have OTS Koni on my Z06, and had they ben out when this car was they'd have been where I started on the FR-S too and made the coil over in thee future. I had AST, sold some 15 sets in fact... never did much like them. I'm about 200r happier with th KW's.

[Scooby South]

Originally Posted by silversprint

The KW v3 doesn't not have a huge following in autox because the shock valving doesn't have a whole lot of low speed damping. The V3 is valved with linear rebound for street comfort.

They work ok for the track by they are almost always too soft.

I would wait for the AST or Ohlins.

That....couldn't be farther from the truth...I know ALOT of National level Folks in STU, STX, ASP DSP and FP running KW's ...including myself... If you think that super Stiff Springs and struts are going to make this car perform...you are sadly mistaken.. I couldn't be happier with my KW's...my car feels Better than Stock and doesn't pound the crap out of you.. plus KW led the way in development on the GT86...Everybody else is guessing right now.. I have a 2nd...a 5th in a Divisional against some top level talant., a couple of 1st's and a INDEX win on KW's in my BRZ... Can't say it doesn't work well for autox....I think they are fantastic..


Bill

[Scooby South]

Originally Posted by Sam Strano

Autox is somthing I know a littl about. I'm quite happy with my KW's. Then again it sems the world thinks you need tricky shocks to win vs good shocks. I've had, and sell other stuff inluding some mentioned. And you know.... I have OTS Koni on my Z06, and had they ben out when this car was they'd have been where I started on the FR-S too and made the coil over in thee future. I had AST, sold some 15 sets in fact... never did much like them. I'm about 200r happier with th KW's.

Absolutely... ...and you Definitely know a little sumin sumin about the cone dance.....

Bill

[Biggins]

Originally Posted by Scooby South

That....couldn't be farther from the truth...I know ALOT of National level Folks in STU, STX, ASP DSP and FP running KW's ...including myself... If you think that super Stiff Springs and struts are going to make this car perform...you are sadly mistaken.. I couldn't be happier with my KW's...my car feels Better than Stock and doesn't pound the crap out of you.. plus KW led the way in development on the GT86...Everybody else is guessing right now.. I have a 2nd...a 5th in a Divisional against some top level talant., a couple of 1st's and a INDEX win on KW's in my BRZ... Can't say it doesn't work well for autox....I think they are fantastic..


Bill

KWs are definitely great, but I too am waiting to see what AST, Koni, Bilstein bring to the table. You also have to remember that not everyone autocrossing this car is aiming to win Nats, so the KWs, ASTs, Ohlins, Penskes, etc. may not be the end-all-be-all. I still cannot even decide which class to run with this thing.

There are several FRS/BRZs running in my region, so we can compare notes. Plus, it doesn't hurt that our region regularly has as many/more cars than most divisionals/tour events, so it gives us a nice gauge on where we are...

[Sam Strano]

Originally Posted by Biggins

KWs are definitely great, but I too am waiting to see what AST, Koni, Bilstein bring to the table. You also have to remember that not everyone autocrossing this car is aiming to win Nats, so the KWs, ASTs, Ohlins, Penskes, etc. may not be the end-all-be-all. I still cannot even decide which class to run with this thing.

There are several FRS/BRZs running in my region, so we can compare notes. Plus, it doesn't hurt that our region regularly has as many/more cars than most divisionals/tour events, so it gives us a nice gauge on where we are...

Hey, I think the Koni's will be pretty damned good bang for the buck when they do arrive. In fact I think I said that somewhere recently.

However, I hate misinformation, and the idea that somehow the KW's are terrible isn't one that sits well. This is only made worse by some stuff I heard from a customer yesterday from a well known Subaru tuner regarding some pretty $$$ struts he owns... what he was told is so far in outer space it's scary.

[silversprint]

Originally Posted by Sam Strano

Hey, I think the Koni's will be pretty damned good bang for the buck when they do arrive. In fact I think I said that somewhere recently.

However, I hate misinformation, and the idea that somehow the KW's are terrible isn't one that sits well. This is only made worse by some stuff I heard from a customer yesterday from a well known Subaru tuner regarding some pretty $$$ struts he owns... what he was told is so far in outer space it's scary.

I think you misunderstood my post regarding the KW. I never said the KW were terrible. I said they are not the best option for autox. Just because people are running them doesn't mean they are the best option. Kw makes a good product.

However give me any off the shelf KW v3 equiped car and I can pretty much guarantee it can be it faster with custom valved ASTs, Ohlins, or even KW. Why because they won't have the compromise of being street coilovers. Very rarely do you encounter high speed bumps in autox.

I have owned several sets of KW v3 and had them all on a shock dyno. I stand by statement that they don't have enough low speed damping.

Since you own the KWs for the FRS why don't you post a shock dyno and disprove my point regarding the valving. I have been known to be wrong before.

[blkwrxwag]

Originally Posted by silversprint

I think you misunderstood my post regarding the KW. I never say the KW were terrible. I said they are not the best option for autox. Just because people are running them doesn't mean the are the best option. Kw makes a good product.

However give my any off the shelf KW v3 equiped car and I can pretty much guarantee I can make it faster with custom valved ASTs, Ohlins, or even KW. Why because they won't have the compromise of being street coilovers. Very rarely do you encounter high speed bumps in autox.

I have owned several sets of KW v3 and had them all on a shock dyno. I stand by statement that they don't have enough low speed damping.

Since you own the KWs for the FRS why don't you post a shock dyno and disprove my point regarding the valving. I have been known to be wrong before.

I'm pretty familiar with the So Cal AX scene - what's your name as I don't recognize your vehicles?

-Max.

[silversprint]

I don't autox. Road course only.

[blkwrxwag]

Originally Posted by silversprint

I don't autox. Road course only.

With all due respect, I'm inclined to take a multi time National Champion like Sam's word on what he thinks on shocks for AX, than yours.

-Max.

[Sam Strano]

Originally Posted by silversprint

I think you misunderstood my post regarding the KW. I never said the KW were terrible. I said they are not the best option for autox. Just because people are running them doesn't mean they are the best option. Kw makes a good product.

However give me any off the shelf KW v3 equiped car and I can pretty much guarantee it can be it faster with custom valved ASTs, Ohlins, or even KW. Why because they won't have the compromise of being street coilovers. Very rarely do you encounter high speed bumps in autox.

I have owned several sets of KW v3 and had them all on a shock dyno. I stand by statement that they don't have enough low speed damping.

Since you own the KWs for the FRS why don't you post a shock dyno and disprove my point regarding the valving. I have been known to be wrong before.

Well you are entitled to that opinion. Frankly every KW I've ever run (mostly on WRX's and Evo's) that was "custom valved" were pretty damn crappy.

Also I've got lots of experience with lots of custom valved shocks, from Koni's to Penske's to AST's, to KW's (and JRZ's and a few others too).

You absolutely encounter high-speed damping autocrossing. We aren't running on glass smooth tracks. In fact tracks are in general in better shape than what we typically run on. Even where we run Nationals has issues like that (think turn 17 at Sebring, that's old WWII era concrete... just like what we run on, the pads are 25' square, and they aren't all perfectly matched up).

I hate to say it, but I chased my tail, a lot, with some and one in particular brand on your list on a few cars. Also had more failures of that brand than any of the others, combined. Not only that you'll hear lots of conjecture about how this shock is a noodle and that one is better. But you know the funny thing is at one point after 2 years of trying I abandoned the trick shocks for "noodle shocks" and not only went better, but won and I was struggling to do that on the fancy dancy stuff. And I'm not the only one, another National Champion has the same issue with the same brand on the same model car, even after both of us were very specific about what we wanted. What we wanted and what we got were not the same thing. And in fact it got to the point that both of us just said we wanted valving that mimicked a Koni Sport for that particular car. You'd have though we had 3 heads, but we know what worked and what didn't. In fact that same guy is still struggling and we are going to do some shakedown work with him @ solo nationals to see if I can help.

You have to be careful with the notion of "race" parts and "street" parts. See, the car has no idea where you are driving it. Certainly there are things might be able to get away with on a track that you don't want to have, or can't deal with on the street. But the fact of the matter is the car is the car, it has a finite amount of mass and grip. And dampers are pretty ignorant as to where you are/how you are driving. Considering I'm not anywhere near out of adjustment on the high side of my KW's (and for that matter only twice have I ever run a Koni full stiff on my stuff, and both times ended up backing off that). I really don't think you need to go nuts. MHO.

[Sam Strano]

Originally Posted by silversprint

I don't autox. Road course only.

I run road courses too. There is a video of me running one, on the KW's, nowhere near full stiff. It's hard to argue the car is not anything but obedient, stable, and well balanced with the settings and rates I'm running.

[Sccabrz192]

The quality of custom valved dampers relies heavily on who's providing the valving information, and how it is achieved. You can match a damper dyno graph all day long, but there is a big difference between a graph and functionality. It's certainly a piece to the puzzle, but not end-all-be-all... IMO the best thing Damper dynos are utilized for is to verify part-to-part variation.

(ex-aftermarket damper engineer)

[Sam Strano]

Originally Posted by Sccabrz192

The quality of custom valved dampers relies heavily on who's providing the valving information, and how it is achieved. You can match a damper dyno graph all day long, but there is a big difference between a graph and functionality. It's certainly a piece to the puzzle, but not end-all-be-all... IMO the best thing Damper dynos are utilized for is to verify part-to-part variation.

(ex-aftermarket damper engineer)

100% agreed. I've driven more screwed up "custom" whiz-bang stuff than I have screwed up reputable off the shelf stuff... even including shocks I'm not a huge fan of.

Not only that, I've won many, many events with boring dampers on the car... beating other Multi-time National champions (driving about equal) with custom stuff from all the major players... I've also valved some really pricey shocks with curves that more closely replicate some "lesser" (in quotes because I don't believe it) shocks with amazing results. Custom doesn't mean correct.