Home Theater/Personal audio thread...

[Clipdat]

Thank you for your extremely valuable contribution to this thread.

It was truly riveting. A++++ WOULD READ AGAIN.

Originally Posted by jsimon7777

The TV goes into a cheap, ebay, Chinese DAC that feeds some kinda I forget passive preamp that was cool in the 90s that feeds a Carver A-500x feeding a pair McIntosh LS310 bookshelf speakers. The wire is from home depot. We use it for movies. It does just fine with the OLED TV. I think it gets used a couple times a month. Mainly I just listen to music in cars.

[meWant]

hey guys, this may sound like a noob question, but do you know how I would connect a powered sub to the Dayton DTA-2.1BT amplifier? Just wondering in case I decide to add a sub to the speakers down the road (thinking Dayton Sub-1000 or Dayton Sub-1200 since its just for my bedroom)

I have attached a picture of the outputs on the back of the amplifier as well. All help is appreciated. I know that it would go into the S connectors just kind of unsure how I would end up connecting them though.

[MuseChaser]

This is going to come off snarky, but I TRULY do not mean it to be; it's just something I've been wondering about for a very long time, as a professional classical and jazz musician (primarily violin/viola in the classical realm and piano in the jazz realm, with admitted crossovers and some time on many other instruments), amateur and occasional professional recording engineer, and long time audio hobbyist (buildling Dynacos and Haflers back when they were a thing, and designing and building speakers from scratch through many decades.

The music I play, listen to, record, and assemble audio systems for is all acoustic. Because my goal is to recreate the experience of listening to a grand piano, a jazz quartet, a string quartet, a symphonic orchestra, a chorus.. whatever.. I have an actual, real-life event to shoot for when placing microphones, mixing, choosing components in playback systems, etc.

To those of you who spend thousands and thousands of dollars on audio equipment (and I'm not putting that hobby down; the gear in my house is worth a lot more than my house), but listen to rock/pop/electronica etc.. here's the question..

The music you listen to has no origination acoustically; it has no "real" reference sound. Sure, the string on an electric guitar vibrates, and that induces an electrical signal in the pickup, but that is then transferred to a pre/amp combo, usually with the pre overdriven for that beautiful real or simulated "tube" "rich in harmonics" distortion... yet we strive for the finest audio gear with low measurable distortion...

Then, dozens and dozens of tracks are manipulated, once digitized and having passed through yards and yards and yards of cables, then passed on to some ProTools/Samplitude workstation, and most likely a bunch of computer/midi-generated sampled tracks are added on top.. the producer/engineer is as much a part of the music creation process as are the folks on the other side of the microphone, if not more... singers voices are compressed, processed, doubled, pitch-corrected and/or shifted... then, after thousands of manipulations, when everyone involved is happy with the result, the product is released.

Next.. the audiophile consumer plays this product back on his/her kilobuck Krell/Muse/Wilson Watt-Puppy system and debates whether or not a Silma or Wondercap sounds better in the preamp signal path..

HOW DO YOU EVEN KNOW WHAT THE ORIGINAL was supposed to sound like in the first place? If it's all subjective and just a matter of finding the sound you enjoy the most, and I can definitely buy that argument, then there's no point in discussion things like "accurate frequency response" or shooting for the holy grail in "realistic" sound reproduction because, by definition, we aren't reproducing anything that was real in the first place.

Do you get my dilemma? Seriously.. I'm not judging. Just very, very confused and curious as to why folks OTHER than acoustic musicians and those who listen to primarily acoustic instruments and voices have any interest at all in "high end" audio.

Just for yucks, my current three systems are..

Main System, daily listening and some background duties..

VPI Scout w/ Sumiko Blue Point
HifiBerry/Pi3 streamer
Assemblage DAC for CD transport (el cheapo Sony changer)
Adcom GFP 565 Pre
Hafler XL-280
Audio Concepts LV Sat/Sub kit speakers

Serious listening in loft..

Thorens (forget model) w/ Sumiko Blue Point No. 2
Pi3 streamer feeding Cambridge Audio DAC+
Audio Alchemy DITB w/ home-made beefier regulated power supply fed by el cheapo Pioneer DVD/CD player
Hafler DH-110 pre, slightly modded
Van Alstein FET hybrid amp
Magnepan 3.6r, biwired, home-brew copper tweeter jumper

HT system..
Pi/Kodi box
Sony BDP-whatever bluray player
iView STB3500II tv tuner/PVR w/ 2tb USB drive for OTA
Sony projector (top of the line, about 15 years ago, still looks great, but tops out at 1080i)
Big, pre-HDMI beefy Yamaha receiver
NAD amp for subs
Homebuilt speakers based on D'Appolito's design for Audax ht (left, center, right, L & R rear)
Pair of sealed enclosure subs based on NHT1259 driver

In my wife's Wii/Xbox room, I set up a pair of Magnepan SMGc speakers driven with an B&K ST150. Not a great match for the speakers, but it's way better than the "speakers" inside the TCL P607 TV.

All cables for all systems are homebrew. Can't bring myself to say "interconnect."

Won't bore you with the studio gear.. mostly just a couple really nice mic pres and AD/DA.

So, yeah, I love this stuff, and yes, I'm on a budget and build as much as I can and buy used what I can't. There's lots of stuff I'd have if I could afford it, and I begrudge no one the ability to own and enjoy the best gear available. Just curious as to why it matters if the music you listen to has no real reference in the real world.

Thanks for reading. Look forward to learning and reading your responses.

[Clipdat]

haha, It's like your post was meant for me since I listen to a large amount of electronic music.

And my only answer is: *Shrug* I don't know.

"My passion is for the music, my hobby is how I listen to it."

Even if it doesn't make sense!


Edit: I think part of it must just be that I like music gear, so the gear acquisition is part of my "sickness". It sounds like you have some nice stuff, I'd love to hear your setups!

[MuseChaser]

Clip, thanks for writing back. It wasn't aimed at you specifically, but I had noticed some of the stuff you had listed as listening reference material. And yes, I DEFINITELY get the "gear sickness" thing! I go in phases, but fortunately the distance between my previous phase and most recent one was about 20 years, which saved me a TON of money! <grin>.

This recent phase was all caused by my wife and I hearing a set of Acoustats at a local used audio store. I had never heard planar speakers before and the "you are there" three dimensional sound of a string quartet was simply mind-blowing. After a lot of research, reading reviews from folks I know in the industry and others, and talking with folks locally, Maggies surfaced as a speaker I needed to get to know better. A few months later, I found the pair of SMGcs a few states away for a couple hundred bucks. Road trip. Set'em up in the loft. Love at first listen. Then... "If these sound this good, can you IMAGINE what the upper-line Maggies sound like/!?!".. and so it goes. After a year of searching, found a pair of 3.6rs 15 hours away at a price I could almost afford kind-of if I bit my lip real hard and shed a small tear. Road trip. AMAAAZZZIIINNGGGGG... but very, VERY power demanding. Sigh. Time to pony up for a higher current amp than my XL-280. Save money. Found a great used Van Alstine from Frank himself (great, very helpful guy, by the way). Now, budget is totally shot, but that loft system is TOTAL nirvana. My wife calls it "The Portal."... it just sucks you in to whatever world the musicians on the recording are currently inhabiting. You can NOT leave or stop listening. It's so beautiful, three-dimensional.. totally eery.

So, yeah.... I def get gear sickness! Cheers..

[Clipdat]

Thanks for sharing your experience with the Maggies and your listening impressions!

Since I started getting into "HiFi" back in 2012, I've expanded my musical tastes and genres that I enjoy. My go-to is still electronic music, but I have a lot of classical and jazz CDs now and I try to get to the SF symphony several times a year if I can.

It's also very cool that your wife is in on the hobby with you! That's really awesome. My wife likes music, but she doesn't go to the obessive lengths I do in regards to listening to it - most of the time she'd rather watch TV versus listen to music. :/

Originally Posted by MuseChaser

Clip, thanks for writing back. It wasn't aimed at you specifically, but I had noticed some of the stuff you had listed as listening reference material. And yes, I DEFINITELY get the "gear sickness" thing! I go in phases, but fortunately the distance between my previous phase and most recent one was about 20 years, which saved me a TON of money! <grin>.

This recent phase was all caused by my wife and I hearing a set of Acoustats at a local used audio store. I had never heard planar speakers before and the "you are there" three dimensional sound of a string quartet was simply mind-blowing. After a lot of research, reading reviews from folks I know in the industry and others, and talking with folks locally, Maggies surfaced as a speaker I needed to get to know better. A few months later, I found the pair of SMGcs a few states away for a couple hundred bucks. Road trip. Set'em up in the loft. Love at first listen. Then... "If these sound this good, can you IMAGINE what the upper-line Maggies sound like/!?!".. and so it goes. After a year of searching, found a pair of 3.6rs 15 hours away at a price I could almost afford kind-of if I bit my lip real hard and shed a small tear. Road trip. AMAAAZZZIIINNGGGGG... but very, VERY power demanding. Sigh. Time to pony up for a higher current amp than my XL-280. Save money. Found a great used Van Alstine from Frank himself (great, very helpful guy, by the way). Now, budget is totally shot, but that loft system is TOTAL nirvana. My wife calls it "The Portal."... it just sucks you in to whatever world the musicians on the recording are currently inhabiting. You can NOT leave or stop listening. It's so beautiful, three-dimensional.. totally eery.

So, yeah.... I def get gear sickness! Cheers..

[Vracer111]

Originally Posted by meWant

hey guys, this may sound like a noob question, but do you know how I would connect a powered sub to the Dayton DTA-2.1BT amplifier? Just wondering in case I decide to add a sub to the speakers down the road (thinking Dayton Sub-1000 or Dayton Sub-1200 since its just for my bedroom)

I have attached a picture of the outputs on the back of the amplifier as well. All help is appreciated. I know that it would go into the S connectors just kind of unsure how I would end up connecting them though.

You don't use an active sub with that... you'd need a passive subwoofer to connect to it.

[Vracer111]

For myself, with a somewhat majority of my listening being electronically created music, it's mainly about shaping the sound more to my preference with the selection of gear while getting more details out of the music, not about realistic/accurate representation of the initial sound. I really could care less about how it is supposed to 'actually sound' - I just want it to sound good to my preference. My gear focus is mainly headphone focused as its my prefered method of music listening. I buy gear to specifically present the music how I like it...that's why I've gravitated to warmer gear with more dynamics and detail.

This is the frequency response of my favorite headphones (beside the STAX):



And they are paired with warm leaning, yet highly detailed and clear sounding gear. In the past, I thought neutral DAC and amps were what I should have to keep the warm leaning TH-X00PH in check and give great detail, but the music just never did sound right. Came across too sterile sounding and actually lacking in bass and dynamics. Basically it was as if trying to restrain the sound and shape it in a way which didn't really showcase what the full potential could be. But I was just following what I saw most everybody recommending - pair a warm headphone with neutral equipment. Basically said 'screw it' and decided to pair them up with warm but very clear and detailed equipment and haven't looked back since.

For sound preference, I would say clarity, detail, dynamics, and impact are what I really like in music. Honestly, soundstage is not much of a concern and neither is tonality (other than does it sound 'recognizable') and accuracy of reproduction is not on my radar. Now the STAX Lamdas do have very accurate tonal reproduction, but they also excel at dynamics and punch and are a forward sounding and exceptionally clear headphone/earspeaker. They also present a sound space different from most headphones... hard to describe, but they present pinpoint imaging with directionality befitting of a really good HT system.

Short answer, I just want it to sound good...

[MuseChaser]

Originally Posted by meWant

hey guys, this may sound like a noob question, but do you know how I would connect a powered sub to the Dayton DTA-2.1BT amplifier? Just wondering in case I decide to add a sub to the speakers down the road (thinking Dayton Sub-1000 or Dayton Sub-1200 since its just for my bedroom)

I have attached a picture of the outputs on the back of the amplifier as well. All help is appreciated. I know that it would go into the S connectors just kind of unsure how I would end up connecting them though.

Most powered subs have a couple connection options, including line level input(s) usually in the form of RCA jacks, and speaker level inputs in the form of standard banana jack/binding posts or, on less expensive options, those spring clip thingies. If the sub you buy also has output terminals for the main left and right speakers, generally that means that is also has an internal high pass crossover. A typical budget setup would be to run the L and R outputs of your amp/receiver to the inputs of the powered sub, then let its internal crossover pass the frequencies above the sub low pass frequency to your mains.

Since your amp, pictured, looks like it has powered outputs for a sub, you could connect your L&R mains to your amp as you have them now, and connect the speaker level inputs of your sub to the powered "S" outputs of your amp, assuming your powered sub has speaker level inputs (binding posts). What you can NOT do is connect the powered output of your amp to a line level input (RCA jack) on your sub.

If your pictured amp does not utilize an internal active low-pass XO prior to the sub outs AND your main L/R speakers do have some extended low bass normally, you may end up with more bass than you'd like. Integrating a sub into a system can be a little fiddle-y..matching XO points and slopes, room response, sub placement, etc. In my experience, the best way to do it is with an adjustable active HP/LP XO prior to the sub amp. Many powered subs incorporate at least a rudimentary version of this feature, but usually only with frequency point options and not Q.

Hope that helps a bit.

Edit: OK, just looked at the Parts Express site to get some more info. As I thought, the subs you're considering have both input options, but your amp only has one powered sub output, no line level output, and no XO frequency/Q options. It does have a sub level control, but so does the sub you're considering. The sub also has an adjustable XO, but I can't tell if it works on the line level signals, speaker level signals, or both. You'd have to take the speaker level sub out of the amp and connect it to either the L or R speaker level inputs of the sub (the spring clips), then fiddle w/ the XO adjustments on the sub and the sub level knob on the amp to set it the way you like it.

Better solution for that amp? Buy/build a box the right size for a specific sub driver, brace it well, and build your own passive sub. It's easy, fun, a great first speaker project, and it'll sound way better than any cheap,powered all-in-one mass market powered sub. Plenty of DIY info re sub building out there. Happy to help if you're interested. Here's an offering from Parts Express that'd fit the bill, but you could DIY for 1/3 the cost...

https://www.parts-express.com/dayton...ndle--300-7090

Yes, I realize that it's a smaller driver, unpowered, a kit, AND more expensive than the sub you mentioned, but it's a much better sub.

[cjd]

Originally Posted by MuseChaser

This is going to come off snarky, but I TRULY do not mean it to be; it's just something I've been wondering about for a very long time, as a professional classical and jazz musician (primarily violin/viola in the classical realm and piano in the jazz realm, with admitted crossovers and some time on many other instruments), amateur and occasional professional recording engineer, and long time audio hobbyist (buildling Dynacos and Haflers back when they were a thing, and designing and building speakers from scratch through many decades.

I told myself I'd quote the first sentence...

Anyhow... um. Incredibly similar background, including an affinity for very long, well formed sentences...

I started building my own speakers/doing my own crossover work because nothing else was right that I felt like buying. I've had them half-stolen for the night at an audio event by someone that's only into rock, but he couldn't get enough. So they clearly appeal to a broader audience, but they're not right until they capture solo violin properly (and that nearly always includes one or two crossovers through the range). Also Mahler's Symphony of a thousand, because most systems just turn to mush. And a few other things. Nearly all classical.

My assessment is this: there are people that wax poetic over their inability to actually understand what they're hearing, but are far too invested in their stuff to admit it and use flower words to cover it up... and there are people that are very well able to hear differences, identify what it is, and curate a system that plays to their preferences.

Note, this latter does NOT necessarily mean they end up with a system that actually presents acoustic recordings so well you can hardly tell it from a live performance, but it does mean they know this and don't particularly care. If they liked music where that mattered, they'd probably have that kind of system.

Anyhow... I've given up particularly caring what kind of audio fiend I'm talking to.

Also, my long drawn out project that may finish some day will likely do things maggies can't, while capturing nearly everything they can. Nearly. But not quite. It will be full range (for me, that requires hitting 32' stops, so 16Hz to 20kHz+) dipole, controlled dispersion (low frequency already gets the classic figure 8, but higher frequencies will get some attention to target this same result). It will be a 4-way though, and that will take some doing.

It's all just fun though for me. Another hobby.

I need a garage system though. I've been considering what kind of fun I can have building subs in the space between the i-beam ceiling joists (there's a deck over the garage, so it's flat). Maybe when I finish the other 5 projects I have parts for and haven't finished. Or is it 6...

[meWant]

Originally Posted by Vracer111

You don't use an active sub with that... you'd need a passive subwoofer to connect to it.

any passive subs that you would recommend? I would of course just like to keep the option for adding the sub down to road open and just see what I would have to choose from.

Originally Posted by MuseChaser

Most powered subs have a couple connection options, including line level input(s) usually in the form of RCA jacks, and speaker level inputs in the form of standard banana jack/binding posts or, on less expensive options, those spring clip thingies. If the sub you buy also has output terminals for the main left and right speakers, generally that means that is also has an internal high pass crossover. A typical budget setup would be to run the L and R outputs of your amp/receiver to the inputs of the powered sub, then let its internal crossover pass the frequencies above the sub low pass frequency to your mains.

Since your amp, pictured, looks like it has powered outputs for a sub, you could connect your L&R mains to your amp as you have them now, and connect the speaker level inputs of your sub to the powered "S" outputs of your amp, assuming your powered sub has speaker level inputs (binding posts). What you can NOT do is connect the powered output of your amp to a line level input (RCA jack) on your sub.

If your pictured amp does not utilize an internal active low-pass XO prior to the sub outs AND your main L/R speakers do have some extended low bass normally, you may end up with more bass than you'd like. Integrating a sub into a system can be a little fiddle-y..matching XO points and slopes, room response, sub placement, etc. In my experience, the best way to do it is with an adjustable active HP/LP XO prior to the sub amp. Many powered subs incorporate at least a rudimentary version of this feature, but usually only with frequency point options and not Q.

Hope that helps a bit.

Edit: OK, just looked at the Parts Express site to get some more info. As I thought, the subs you're considering have both input options, but your amp only has one powered sub output, no line level output, and no XO frequency/Q options. It does have a sub level control, but so does the sub you're considering. The sub also has an adjustable XO, but I can't tell if it works on the line level signals, speaker level signals, or both. You'd have to take the speaker level sub out of the amp and connect it to either the L or R speaker level inputs of the sub (the spring clips), then fiddle w/ the XO adjustments on the sub and the sub level knob on the amp to set it the way you like it.

Better solution for that amp? Buy/build a box the right size for a specific sub driver, brace it well, and build your own passive sub. It's easy, fun, a great first speaker project, and it'll sound way better than any cheap,powered all-in-one mass market powered sub. Plenty of DIY info re sub building out there. Happy to help if you're interested. Here's an offering from Parts Express that'd fit the bill, but you could DIY for 1/3 the cost...

https://www.parts-express.com/dayton...ndle--300-7090

Yes, I realize that it's a smaller driver, unpowered, a kit, AND more expensive than the sub you mentioned, but it's a much better sub.

I do believe that many of the reviewers were saying that the amp is set at a fixed crossover at roughly 180Hz which would probably be why it did not have any options for crossover.

I appreciate the help, but the sub was just something I was looking into right now as a potential down the road upgrade since I was going to just get a cheapish system for the room that doesn't take up much space. The sub is just somewhat an afterthought, although with some events coming up in these next two weeks I wouldn't really pull the trigger on anything until maybe the start of the new month. But I'll try to research that DIY sub that you referenced as well and see how that may work.

[MuseChaser]

Originally Posted by cjd

....
Also, my long drawn out project that may finish some day will likely do things maggies can't, while capturing nearly everything they can. Nearly. But not quite. It will be full range (for me, that requires hitting 32' stops, so 16Hz to 20kHz+) dipole, controlled dispersion (low frequency already gets the classic figure 8, but higher frequencies will get some attention to target this same result). It will be a 4-way though, and that will take some doing.

..

I'd sure be interested in anything ideas you have or seeing pics of the results of your experimentations towards those goals. In my admittedly limited experience (when compared to folks who are consistently engaged in speaker building and design throughout their lifespans), adding crossover points can make some design goals difficult to acheive. My personal "bests" have been two-way passive designs in an MTM config, with a separate sealed subwoofer system after an active XO. My homebrew system, as much as I enjoy it, doesn't even come close to the Maggies.

You've hit upon one of the two areas that the Maggies DO struggle with; deepest bass response. The SMGc pair had almost none.. acoustic bass sounded great, and there was plenty of response down there to have it have some weight, but there was no "feeling" it at all. The 3.6r pair, while not in the same league as my two 3.0ft3 sealed subs, is much better in that department but you're correct.. they still aren't going to rattle the walls on a 32' pipe recording.

The other issue is that the listening sweet spot is very small. Again, the 3.6r is much better than the SMGc .. the sweet spot on the little Maggies was literally about 4" wide and 4" deep.. needed to keep your head in a vice. Both pairs are very senstive to speaker placement, and moving the two huge panels of the 3.6r pair around to get it right was a good workout.

For the amazing plusses, those two minuses are incredibly minor to me.

Thanks for writing back.. interesting stuff!

[MuseChaser]

Originally Posted by meWant

...I do believe that many of the reviewers were saying that the amp is set at a fixed crossover at roughly 180Hz which would probably be why it did not have any options for crossover.

180hz is a VERY high XO point for a sub.. it's not really even in the sub range. Even the smallest of bookshelf speakers will typically have significant energy down to at least 100hz. I also noted that the sub you were looking at has an adjustable XO but it only goes as HIGH as 140z. If the amp high-passes the main L/R outputs at the same frequency, 180z, and passes everything below that to the sub outputs, but your sub has a max LP setting of 140hz, you'll be filtering out everything between 140hz and 180hz, resulting in .. well... a very "unusual" sound. Whether you like it or not is not for me to say.

With that little BT digital amp, as I said, your best bet would be to build a cheap 8" -10" sub in a small box as a first project and call it good, especially with such a high XO point. That's really bizarre.

[Vracer111]

Originally Posted by meWant

any passive subs that you would recommend? I would of course just like to keep the option for adding the sub down to road open and just see what I would have to choose from.

I've never dealt with any passive sub, only have been active subs.