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Old 07-27-2015, 02:37 AM   #239
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I suppose a cat could be added downstream, then the O2 relocated behind it. But I would really like a definitive on this one because it's my daily.
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Old 07-27-2015, 04:23 AM   #240
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sw20kosh
Still won't pass. Can't pass without a cat in between the O2 sensors.
How about PTuning's header, that claims among it's features to not causing CEL code (even while being catless)?
Though then again CEL can appear even on catted aftermarket headers ..
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Old 07-27-2015, 05:28 AM   #241
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Guys, look up spark plug defouler trick.
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Old 07-27-2015, 09:35 AM   #242
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If anyone us worried about emissions/inspection tests then there is an easy solution for you:

Step 1) Uninstall the header

Step 2) Reinstall stock header

Step 3) Retune back to stock


If you are really worried that much about headers passing tests, you shouldn't be shopping for headers.
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Old 07-27-2015, 03:17 PM   #243
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Quote:
Originally Posted by churchx View Post
How about PTuning's header, that claims among it's features to not causing CEL code (even while being catless)?
Though then again CEL can appear even on catted aftermarket headers ..
We make no such claims about the ACE; no header is immune to a O2 sensor CEL unless it is OEM, or fully identically functional compared to OEM (which defeats the purpose).
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Old 07-27-2015, 08:46 PM   #244
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kostamojen View Post
If anyone us worried about emissions/inspection tests then there is an easy solution for you:

Step 1) Uninstall the header

Step 2) Reinstall stock header

Step 3) Retune back to stock


If you are really worried that much about headers passing tests, you shouldn't be shopping for headers.
This...

It seriously doesn't take that long, it's only every two years, and it's a good chance to inspect your car anyway.
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Old 07-27-2015, 11:40 PM   #245
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CSG Mike
We make no such claims about the ACE; no header is immune to a O2 sensor CEL unless it is OEM, or fully identically functional compared to OEM (which defeats the purpose).
My bet is that it CAN be done, even without making fully identically functional. To me it looks, like simply one has to spend LOT of time on comparing/measuring ranges of sensors, expected values/deltas of readings on stock header pre/after cat (if not by unavailable manufacturer data (not just on sensors, but also in ECU tables), then eg. by experiments, for example getting extremes where CEL appears almost immediately, and then choosing middle of range), and then try not blindly add just any of the shelf distancer/defouler/whatever, that will artificially reduce amount of exhaust gases passing through second sensor, to compensate them being not cleaned up by cat, but will reduce to exact required amount for reading being within expected ranges. Of course - it will mean lot of work/time spent on such secondary function instead of concentrating on main things like getting most optimum runners configuration for most performance gains, and given often insufficient available man-hours to dedicate for that one often needs to prioritise which matters most, but theoretically one should be able to customize second sensor placement even without making header 100% replica of stock construction-wise, if decided to concentrate on that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by uspspro
This...
It seriously doesn't take that long, it's only every two years, and it's a good chance to inspect your car anyway.
Not whole world has US MOT inspection rules. Not everybody has facilities and tools to rise car and do header swap DIY. And cost to swap yearly header in service shops, buy new gaskets and possibly change stripped bolts/threads from frequent swaps to stock and back .. i guess total header related costs including swaping cost for few years will soon pass that of forced induction.
No wonder that even while swap back sounds simple, there are many, given choice, wishing to avoid that. Just that choice is not there ..

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Old 07-28-2015, 01:20 AM   #246
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Quote:
Originally Posted by churchx View Post
My bet is that it CAN be done, even without making fully identically functional. To me it looks, like simply one has to spend LOT of time on comparing/measuring ranges of sensors, expected values/deltas of readings on stock header pre/after cat (if not by unavailable manufacturer data (not just on sensors, but also in ECU tables), then eg. by experiments, for example getting extremes where CEL appears almost immediately, and then choosing middle of range), and then try not blindly add just any of the shelf distancer/defouler/whatever, that will artificially reduce amount of exhaust gases passing through second sensor, to compensate them being not cleaned up by cat, but will reduce to exact required amount for reading being within expected ranges. Of course - it will mean lot of work/time spent on such secondary function instead of concentrating on main things like getting most optimum runners configuration for most performance gains, and given often insufficient available man-hours to dedicate for that one often needs to prioritise which matters most, but theoretically one should be able to customize second sensor placement even without making header 100% replica of stock construction-wise, if decided to concentrate on that.
Nope. I suggest you read up on how the ECU determines if the cat is functional, and how it uses the signals from the two O2 sensors to determine if a CEL is in order.

Your post conclusively tells me that you have ZERO clue as to how the system operates, and are purely speculating as to how you *think* it works (hint: that's not how it works).
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Old 07-28-2015, 01:28 AM   #247
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I suppose what this is really going to come down to is whether or not you have state emissions testing performed. If the car can't give you a readiness monitor that is favorable enough to pass emissions, it will only hurt the sales of this product.

Many people live in areas where OBD2 is a requirement. So... buy this header (or any header) if you want a slow race car you can't register for street use, I guess. But hey, at least it will be fun on the track that 1% of americans live close to. Or you can trailer it I suppose. Or buy another car that's faster... the options are there.

Basically, what I want to know: How do people register their vehicles with turbos and headers? I'm genuinely curious what is going on with the tune that disables the P0420 code. Is the emission monitor for cat function disabled? Or does the tune modify the values the computer deems is acceptable without throwing an error code?
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Old 07-28-2015, 01:35 AM   #248
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coheed View Post
I suppose what this is really going to come down to is whether or not you have state emissions testing performed. If the car can't give you a readiness monitor that is favorable enough to pass emissions, it will only hurt the sales of this product.

Many people live in areas where OBD2 is a requirement. So... buy this header (or any header) if you want a slow race car you can't register for street use, I guess. But hey, at least it will be fun on the track that 1% of americans live close to. Or you can trailer it I suppose. Or buy another car that's faster... the options are there.

Basically, what I want to know: How do people register their vehicles with turbos and headers? I'm genuinely curious what is going on with the tune that disables the P0420 code. Is the emission monitor for cat function disabled? Or does the tune modify the values the computer deems is acceptable without throwing an error code?
You just disable that code in EcuTek. All readyness check will still pass.

If you use a Flex Fuel kit like the Delicious Tuning kit, then you disable ALL CELs that involve the secondary O2. Otherwise your car will throw all kinds of codes, since the secondary O2 sensor signal will be completely out of whack; it's sending data for ethanol content, not O2 readings (the DT kit takes over the secondary O2 sensor input).
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Old 07-28-2015, 01:40 AM   #249
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That's exactly what I needed to know, Mike. Thanks for the response. I know how to trick the ECU into thinking everything is ok by using spacers/capacitors etc, but I'd rather a software workaround to keep it simple.

Thanks again.
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Old 07-28-2015, 02:25 AM   #250
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CSG Mike
Nope. I suggest you read up on how the ECU determines if the cat is functional, and how it uses the signals from the two O2 sensors to determine if a CEL is in order.

Your post conclusively tells me that you have ZERO clue as to how the system operates, and are purely speculating as to how you *think* it works (hint: that's not how it works).
Indeed, i just empirically guessed how it works when looking on construction of some aftermarket spacers for O2 sensors that supposedly eliminate or lessen chance of triggering CEL. It looked to me that ECU simply gets reading pre/after cat and depending on delta between readings decides if it's ok, and that those spacers simply reduce amount of total exhaust gases that passes by sensor instead of full volume but cleaned up that goes after non-deleted and functioning cat in stock header with stock secondary sensor location. Possible reasons of still appearing CELs seemed to stem from non precise results to not get results within expected reading ranges by ECU to decide 'it's OK', and possible fix seemed - to spend more efforts to get closer within what's expected.
But subject seems interesting to read on. Can you advise any hints/articles/urls to read on it in addition of generic googling on O2 sensors/Cat efficiency check+ECU or whatever other search terms may help finding rtfm on that?
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Old 07-28-2015, 02:34 AM   #251
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Coheed: btw, there imho there is nice option of supercharging instead of adding turbo (with added need to mod exhaust for turbo to work from that) but leaving original header/cats stock/instact. Both performance gains and stock cat configuration, though some tune for SC still is necessary, at least no need to disabling cat checks, no?
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Old 07-28-2015, 02:44 AM   #252
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Not having a CEL is one thing. But the ECU making a positive reply to the cat diagnosis completion is another. It's a lot harder to do without manufacturer support. Cat diagnosis calibration is an engineer full time job.
In fact this job is not done by the car manufacturer, but by the ECU/injection system manufacturer.

Is it not possible to cheat inspection in the US ?
I plan on going FI with my car in France, which is illegal and will drive without the local MOT (as I drive on the road from home to the track only, it's not a DD)
Police only arrest crapy looking cars out there (or sadly, people with dark skin)

If I want, I can buy a MOT sticker from a MOT agent that just want easy money (without seeing my car, obviously)
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