Motor Trend, August issue.

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by tranzformer

I think you just made madfast and my points for us. Notice nothing about DD, picking up kids from school, getting groceries, driving to the office. All of the things you listed are work related and require a truck as part of the job. A Civic would not work in their case.

No. You've just demonstrated how little you understand the situation. The trucks are used for all of those things as well. And it's not this huge hassle you seem to think it is. Plus a lot of the hobbies and recreational things these guys for fun also involve needing a truck.

If you were to visit any part of British Columbia (province I live in) north of Vancouver, you will see that about 50% of the vehicles on the road are pickup trucks. And they are the do-everything vehicle for the people that own them.

[tranzformer]

Originally Posted by Dimman

No. You've just demonstrated how little you understand the situation. The trucks are used for all of those things as well. And it's not this huge hassle you seem to think it is. Plus a lot of the hobbies and recreational things these guys for fun also involve needing a truck.

If you were to visit any part of British Columbia (province I live in) north of Vancouver, you will see that about 50% of the vehicles on the road are pickup trucks. And they are the do-everything vehicle for the people that own them.

No I understand. You guys need the trucks out in the sticks. We are saying urban folks don't need a truck for the one time a year they "might" move a sofa. They are better off with a compact SUV or crossover. Not sure why you keep bringing up rural drivers when they make up the smallest percentage of the market.

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by tranzformer

No I understand. You guys need the trucks out in the sticks. We are saying urban folks don't need a truck for the one time a year they "might" move a sofa. They are better off with a compact SUV or crossover. Not sure why you keep bringing up rural drivers when they make up the smallest percentage of the market.

Going back to the F-series sales figures, how do you figure? And keep in mind that is just one Ford model.

Plus when we move to the suburbs there are still practical uses for trucks.

In urban situations you could even argue that people in urban environments don't need anything more than a Smart car or iQ.

[tranzformer]

Originally Posted by Dimman

Going back to the F-series sales figures, how do you figure? And keep in mind that is just one Ford model.

Plus when we move to the suburbs there are still practical uses for trucks.

In urban situations you could even argue that people in urban environments don't need anything more than a Smart car or iQ.

F series figures does not equate to rural drivers as the F series sales is also composed of suburban and urban drivers. Do I need to pull out a population density chart to make my point? In the US 80% live in urban areas and only 20% in rural. As a result 80%>20% and urban car owners make up the largest portion of the market.

http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/planning/cen...ning/cps2k.cfm

Smart and iQ might have their place for a single person or someone with no family or friends. How many children and pets and groceries can you fit in a Smart?

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by tranzformer

F series figures does not equate to rural drivers as the F series sales is also composed of suburban and urban drivers. Do I need to pull out a population density chart to make my point? In the US 80% live in urban areas and only 20% in rural. As a result 80%>20% and urban car owners make up the largest portion of the market.

http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/planning/cen...ning/cps2k.cfm

Smart and iQ might have their place for a single person or someone with no family or friends. How many children and pets and groceries can you fit in a Smart?

But in Europe most people don't even drive. They just have mopeds and take mass transit.

Come to think of it one of the most awesome, hilarious magazine articles I ever read was in Car (a British mag) and they were testing an F-150 in England.

I think we may have set a record for most on-topic, off-topic argument.

Anyone local to Vancouver have a truck, SUV, CUV or wagon I can borrow so I can pick up that WRX short block I mentioned?

[tranzformer]

Originally Posted by Dimman

But in Europe most people don't even drive. They just have mopeds and take mass transit.

Come to think of it one of the most awesome, hilarious magazine articles I ever read was in Car (a British mag) and they were testing an F-150 in England.

I think we may have set a record for most on-topic, off-topic argument.

Anyone local to Vancouver have a truck, SUV, CUV or wagon I can borrow so I can pick up that WRX short block I mentioned?

Well I respect your opinion even if we don't agree. Can still have a good discussion while we have different opinions. At least we are talking about automobiles in the thread and not our favorite steaks or BBQ.

[1660]

Originally Posted by madfast

yes, but just because you can doesnt mean you necessarily will. and even if you do, how often? and is that representative of the general populace?



hence all the idiots who buy trucks, only to use the pickup bed once a year...



it can look sporty. but that doesnt mean it has to do 0-60 in 4 secs and pull 0.99 g...



my argument, that has never changed, is that scion would be better off making a suv/crossover rather than a compact pickup. they make a lot of hatchbacks now, but they dont offer AWD. what's the argument for a compact suv/crossover? simple. its the same core reasons why people buy them to begin with: cargo space, ride height, fuel economy, ride/comfort, etc. its self explanatory.

what isnt self explanatory is why the average family would buy a pickup. all the reasons you state that someone might buy a pickup, turn out to be some out of the ordinary task they do a few times a year. fixing up your home, talking a bag of leaves god knows where, moving couches for a friend, etc, etc. etc.... all of the above is not normal day to day living for most people.

a truck CAN get groceries, BUT WHO WOULD WANT TO???? its one thing to say i have a truck, so i get my groceries in the truck. you have the truck, of course you're gonna use it. but its a whole other story to say i get a lot of groceries, therefore i must buy a pickup... NOBODY says that! but buy a SUV over a car? SURE!!!!!!! tons of people buy suvs EXACTLY for that reason. they need cargo space, but arent going to go to the extreme and get a pickup so you can carry whatever you like whenever you happen to need it....

You've never owned a pickup and you still don't know what you're talking about. This can go on and on and you would still be clueless. You keep coming back in order to win a silly argument. The fact remains, you never owned a pickup truck and you don't know why people buy a pickup truck. You don't know how people use a pickup truck. You don't know why people would buy pickup trucks. Guess what? Pickup trucks exist in real life all over the world.

[ToyotaObsession]

Originally Posted by madfast

you're crazy dude...

i bet there are like 100x more people that haul their families to the store in a SUV than haul whatever in a pickup bed...

if this segment was so popular, every manufacturer would throw their hat in the ring to get a piece. yet there are so few choices out there. but SUV/crossovers? there are so many you couldnt count them all...

LOL you bet that huh? Well seeing as how I buy groceries once a week you might be right, but that doesn't really prove much. It's like saying "I'll bet 100 times more people commute in a Camry than pick up groceries in it." You can pick any thing people do more often and you'll be right. But that doesn't prove anything.

Originally Posted by madfast

this is a great point. if you argue that pickups can be daily driven, then why doesnt europe have as many as we do? maybe pickups, like cowboys, are an american culture thing... so that doesnt say much about the vehicle, as much as it says about the people...

LOL why does Europe have way more Diesels than we do? Why do they speak more languages than we do?

They have more Trucks in Africa than Cars. Maybe they are all Cowboys down there too?

Originally Posted by tranzformer

Europe has rural areas as well. They have farms and ranches. It isn't just cities.

Btw I never said a truck isn't useful in a rural environment for a farmer or rancher. It is. I don't think madfast would disagree with that either.

Uh huh, and why isn't a Truck useful in a Suburban or Urban environment? Because everything can fit into a Small SUV? Yeah that's sound logic.

Originally Posted by madfast

no. you have to think from a manufacturer's standpoint. is there a large enough market for a compact pickup? what are the sales numbers? what are the surveys and focus groups saying? what are the customers telling our dealers?

do you honestly think there are enough people out there that walk into a toyota dealership and say, gosh i wish this tacoma was smaller?

Everyone I know that's looked at a Tundra has wished it came with a Diesel yet we still don't have one.

We don't always get what we wish for.

Originally Posted by Dimman

No. You've just demonstrated how little you understand the situation. The trucks are used for all of those things as well. And it's not this huge hassle you seem to think it is. Plus a lot of the hobbies and recreational things these guys for fun also involve needing a truck.

If you were to visit any part of British Columbia (province I live in) north of Vancouver, you will see that about 50% of the vehicles on the road are pickup trucks. And they are the do-everything vehicle for the people that own them.

Exactly. This idea that anything other than EXACTLY what you need and nothing more is overkill is so funny! By that logic the FT-86 is overkill. There's no reason to go more than 60 MPH and unless you're gonna fill up those back seats 3 times a week better get a car without them! Overkill!

Originally Posted by tranzformer

No I understand. You guys need the trucks out in the sticks. We are saying urban folks don't need a truck for the one time a year they "might" move a sofa. They are better off with a compact SUV or crossover. Not sure why you keep bringing up rural drivers when they make up the smallest percentage of the market.

ROFL!! This is one of the stupidest things I've had the chance to read

I'm not out in the Sticks and I use my truck on occasion for Hauling junk, ferrying the Dogs around, and even getting Groceries!

I haven't even moved a sofa with it! I feel so left out. Who needs a sofa moved? Maybe I can take mine around the block. You know REALLY get all the usefulness out of my truck you think I have to have.

Oh, so please, tell me what else would I better off owning? Do I need this big TV? New Laptop? The idea that you know exactly what everyone needs based on nothing more than your opinion is so laughably stupid I can't believe you actually said it. Seriously what makes you think that everyone in the world would be better off owning a Small SUV? What if a family has 13 members? Should they buy 2? You know because you said that's better for them than say a Fullsize Van.

Originally Posted by Dimman

Anyone local to Vancouver have a truck, SUV, CUV or wagon I can borrow so I can pick up that WRX short block I mentioned?

Come down to Everett and borrow mine

Originally Posted by madfast

yes, but just because you can doesnt mean you necessarily will. and even if you do, how often? and is that representative of the general populace?

hence all the idiots who buy trucks, only to use the pickup bed once a year...

it can look sporty. but that doesnt mean it has to do 0-60 in 4 secs and pull 0.99 g...

my argument, that has never changed, is that scion would be better off making a suv/crossover rather than a compact pickup. they make a lot of hatchbacks now, but they dont offer AWD. what's the argument for a compact suv/crossover? simple. its the same core reasons why people buy them to begin with: cargo space, ride height, fuel economy, ride/comfort, etc. its self explanatory.

what isnt self explanatory is why the average family would buy a pickup. all the reasons you state that someone might buy a pickup, turn out to be some out of the ordinary task they do a few times a year. fixing up your home, talking a bag of leaves god knows where, moving couches for a friend, etc, etc. etc.... all of the above is not normal day to day living for most people.

a truck CAN get groceries, BUT WHO WOULD WANT TO???? its one thing to say i have a truck, so i get my groceries in the truck. you have the truck, of course you're gonna use it. but its a whole other story to say i get a lot of groceries, therefore i must buy a pickup... NOBODY says that! but buy a SUV over a car? SURE!!!!!!! tons of people buy suvs EXACTLY for that reason. they need cargo space, but arent going to go to the extreme and get a pickup so you can carry whatever you like whenever you happen to need it....

ROFL this cracked me up the most!

So try to stay with me while I take this bit by bit. Do you know anyone who owns a WRX(I know it's overkill to own a WRX but what are you gonna do?)? Have they ever rally raced it? I mean it's made to Rally, so it can but does that mean they ever will? Will they ever even take it over 80MPH? If they do how often? Does that represent the average WRX owners?

I guess everyone who buys a WRX, Lancer, or anything else that's designed to race and doesn't is an idiot huh?

You see where I'm going with this logic? Ferrari's can go 200 MPH, will most of them ever see that speed? Probably not. That doesn't affect the person's decision to get one. There can be lots of other reasons to get one. Sometimes just knowing you can do something is enough.

That's not Sporty, that is sports car territory. But in order to look sporty it has to back it up at least a little bit. Get a Sporty SUV that takes 13 seconds to go 0-60MPH people are gonna be pissed lol.

So why would someone make the upgrade and spend the extra money to get the SUV if that's all their interested in. They could get that by spending less money on just a Regular 'ole Scion. A compact Truck would offer something they can't already get. A bed!

So what if it's not day to day living? That makes zero sense.

By your logic, you won't be using every inch of space in an SUV everyday either, so you don't need it. I mean that actually makes less sense than saying an SUV is better at being Safe LOL.

So again it comes back to the fact that day to day, driving a Truck as DD is exactly the same as an SUV. You get in alone and drive back and forth to work, run some errands occasionally and that's it. Less than 10% of the time it's going to matter if you have an SUV or a Truck. So your logic is flawed because it can be applied to SUV's just the same.

Now you're just being silly. Nobody buys an SUV so they can buy tons of Groceries. Yes they buy it for the Cargo space. People buy a Truck for the bed. There's literally no difference in the logic there. Each has an advantage that will be useful to some, others not.

Buying a Compact Truck is no more extreme than buying a Small SUV. For basically the same reasons. Buying a Ferrari so you can go to the Grocery and make it back home in Record time would be extreme LOL.

So honestly you aren't making a good argument here. If you like SUV's that's fine. There's nothing wrong with that. But taking something you like, and trying to prove that it's better than everything else no matter what is going to end up making you look like a fool. It's just not going to work. Your logic can be circled back on you. All this talk about overkill, and only using it sometimes apply to 99% of Cars/Trucks/SUV's.

So all you've done is actually prove that Scion selling an SUV would be pointless because they already have Small Cars that fill that niche. They don't have a Truck though.

So thank you for that .

[kuruma]

I thought this thread was about a motortrend article. Silly me.

[Sabastian]

Originally Posted by kuruma

I thought this thread was about a motortrend article. Silly me.

Welcome to FT86club.com.

[madfast]

Originally Posted by ToyotaObsession

LOL you bet that huh? Well seeing as how I buy groceries once a week you might be right, but that doesn't really prove much. It's like saying "I'll bet 100 times more people commute in a Camry than pick up groceries in it." You can pick any thing people do more often and you'll be right. But that doesn't prove anything.



LOL why does Europe have way more Diesels than we do? Why do they speak more languages than we do?

They have more Trucks in Africa than Cars. Maybe they are all Cowboys down there too?



Uh huh, and why isn't a Truck useful in a Suburban or Urban environment? Because everything can fit into a Small SUV? Yeah that's sound logic.



Everyone I know that's looked at a Tundra has wished it came with a Diesel yet we still don't have one.

We don't always get what we wish for.





Exactly. This idea that anything other than EXACTLY what you need and nothing more is overkill is so funny! By that logic the FT-86 is overkill. There's no reason to go more than 60 MPH and unless you're gonna fill up those back seats 3 times a week better get a car without them! Overkill!



ROFL!! This is one of the stupidest things I've had the chance to read

I'm not out in the Sticks and I use my truck on occasion for Hauling junk, ferrying the Dogs around, and even getting Groceries!

I haven't even moved a sofa with it! I feel so left out. Who needs a sofa moved? Maybe I can take mine around the block. You know REALLY get all the usefulness out of my truck you think I have to have.

Oh, so please, tell me what else would I better off owning? Do I need this big TV? New Laptop? The idea that you know exactly what everyone needs based on nothing more than your opinion is so laughably stupid I can't believe you actually said it. Seriously what makes you think that everyone in the world would be better off owning a Small SUV? What if a family has 13 members? Should they buy 2? You know because you said that's better for them than say a Fullsize Van.



Come down to Everett and borrow mine





ROFL this cracked me up the most!

So try to stay with me while I take this bit by bit. Do you know anyone who owns a WRX(I know it's overkill to own a WRX but what are you gonna do?)? Have they ever rally raced it? I mean it's made to Rally, so it can but does that mean they ever will? Will they ever even take it over 80MPH? If they do how often? Does that represent the average WRX owners?

I guess everyone who buys a WRX, Lancer, or anything else that's designed to race and doesn't is an idiot huh?

You see where I'm going with this logic? Ferrari's can go 200 MPH, will most of them ever see that speed? Probably not. That doesn't affect the person's decision to get one. There can be lots of other reasons to get one. Sometimes just knowing you can do something is enough.

That's not Sporty, that is sports car territory. But in order to look sporty it has to back it up at least a little bit. Get a Sporty SUV that takes 13 seconds to go 0-60MPH people are gonna be pissed lol.

So why would someone make the upgrade and spend the extra money to get the SUV if that's all their interested in. They could get that by spending less money on just a Regular 'ole Scion. A compact Truck would offer something they can't already get. A bed!

So what if it's not day to day living? That makes zero sense.

By your logic, you won't be using every inch of space in an SUV everyday either, so you don't need it. I mean that actually makes less sense than saying an SUV is better at being Safe LOL.

So again it comes back to the fact that day to day, driving a Truck as DD is exactly the same as an SUV. You get in alone and drive back and forth to work, run some errands occasionally and that's it. Less than 10% of the time it's going to matter if you have an SUV or a Truck. So your logic is flawed because it can be applied to SUV's just the same.

Now you're just being silly. Nobody buys an SUV so they can buy tons of Groceries. Yes they buy it for the Cargo space. People buy a Truck for the bed. There's literally no difference in the logic there. Each has an advantage that will be useful to some, others not.

Buying a Compact Truck is no more extreme than buying a Small SUV. For basically the same reasons. Buying a Ferrari so you can go to the Grocery and make it back home in Record time would be extreme LOL.

So honestly you aren't making a good argument here. If you like SUV's that's fine. There's nothing wrong with that. But taking something you like, and trying to prove that it's better than everything else no matter what is going to end up making you look like a fool. It's just not going to work. Your logic can be circled back on you. All this talk about overkill, and only using it sometimes apply to 99% of Cars/Trucks/SUV's.

So all you've done is actually prove that Scion selling an SUV would be pointless because they already have Small Cars that fill that niche. They don't have a Truck though.

So thank you for that .

why no diesel in america? politics. simple as that. the price for diesel does not make it economical for americans. blame the giant oil companies and the corrupt politicians that take their money.

this has gone on long enough. im just going to say this. for most people an SUV would suit their life better. a modern SUV/crossover is nothing more than a lifted wagon or hatchback. people want the larger cargo area, fold down seats, lifted ride height, and the sense of security a suv/crossover gives you. they may not need the extra space all the time but its there if you need. and for the record this is compared to a car, not a truck. if you want more space than a car, the next logical progression is to a suv/crossover/minivan NOT a pickup.

you OBVIOUSLY do not have a family. if you had a wife and kids, you would sell your pickup and get an suv to haul them around, their kiddie seats, their diaper bag, toys, food, water, etc... you take your own independent life and apply it to everyone else. but guess what? it just doesnt work that way. why so many high school and college kids have pickups? this same reason. no responsibility except themselves...

you say you get in alone and drive to work and run errands? ok, so what about the MILLIONS of americans that wake up, and drive their kids to school? drive their wife to work? drive their aging parents to the doctor? car pool to work? etc. etc etc ad nauseam. not everyone is this young dude living alone with a drift truck.... once you start realizing that, then your eyes open up.

and all of these trucks you see out there. how many of them are work related trucks? how many of them are second vehicles that people need to haul or tow stuff occasionally? how many are their only vehicle? how many are FAMILY vehicles? how dense is the population of the truck owner? what kinda job does the truck driver have?

ask these questions to every single american and you actually think they'd buy a pickup over a suv? you're bonkers...

[tranzformer]

Originally Posted by madfast

why no diesel in america? politics. simple as that. the price for diesel does not make it economical for americans. blame the giant oil companies and the corrupt politicians that take their money.

this has gone on long enough. im just going to say this. for most people an SUV would suit their life better. a modern SUV/crossover is nothing more than a lifted wagon or hatchback. people want the larger cargo area, fold down seats, lifted ride height, and the sense of security a suv/crossover gives you. they may not need the extra space all the time but its there if you need. and for the record this is compared to a car, not a truck. if you want more space than a car, the next logical progression is to a suv/crossover/minivan NOT a pickup.

+1. Exactly. If we had similar petrol vs. diesel prices in the US as they do in Europe, then diesel would be a more popular option with manufacturers and consumers alike. But like you said, politics.

Originally Posted by madfast

you OBVIOUSLY do not have a family. if you had a wife and kids, you would sell your pickup and get an suv to haul them around, their kiddie seats, their diaper bag, toys, food, water, etc... you take your own independent life and apply it to everyone else. but guess what? it just doesnt work that way. why so many high school and college kids have pickups? this same reason. no responsibility except themselves...

you say you get in alone and drive to work and run errands? ok, so what about the MILLIONS of americans that wake up, and drive their kids to school? drive their wife to work? drive their aging parents to the doctor? car pool to work? etc. etc etc ad nauseam. not everyone is this young dude living alone with a drift truck.... once you start realizing that, then your eyes open up.

and all of these trucks you see out there. how many of them are work related trucks? how many of them are second vehicles that people need to haul or tow stuff occasionally? how many are their only vehicle? how many are FAMILY vehicles? how dense is the population of the truck owner? what kinda job does the truck driver have?

ask these questions to every single american and you actually think they'd buy a pickup over a suv? you're bonkers...

I don't think Toyota Obsession gets the idea that a small SUV or crossover fits the typical person's daily routine better than a truck. Like you mentioned, when you have a wife, kids, old parents to drive around, an SUV or crossover does that job better than a truck. More room for people. More comfortable of a ride. A truck has its purpose as has been mentioned ad nauseam in this thread. But for an average person with a family a SUV/crossover just does it much better.

[madfast]

Originally Posted by tranzformer

+1. Exactly. If we had similar petrol vs. diesel prices in the US as they do in Europe, then diesel would be a more popular option with manufacturers and consumers alike. But like you said, politics.








I don't think Toyota Obsession gets the idea that a small SUV or crossover fits the typical person's daily routine better than a truck. Like you mentioned, when you have a wife, kids, old parents to drive around, an SUV or crossover does that job better than a truck. More room for people. More comfortable of a ride. A truck has its purpose as has been mentioned ad nauseam in this thread. But for an average person with a family a truck just does it much better.

yes! this is the key point. i assume he does not have his own family/kids and that he has NO CLUE what day to day life is like with those kinds of responsibilities. he uses his own lifestyle as a template for everyone else. and that is sooooo not the case.

for every father in america. where is he going to put the baby seat in a pickup? the diaper bags? the formula? the toys? the bottles? the bibs, etc, etc, etc. more than one kid? even worse off for a pickup. add in the wife? parents? friends? the list goes ON AND ON.... or are gon do this redneck style and yall can hop in the pickup bed?

[WingsofWar]

all this truck talk is interesting and all, but i think there is a lot of over generalizing and assumptions here? im in the average blue collar urban 3 person family target audience now. This is what i know as a consumer.

I would could not see any value in a full or midsized SUV for myself. The only reason why i could potentially be interested in one is for the shier size of it. Because for most people, they would think a larger car would yield better impact results and safty for passengers. Sure i want to keep my family safe, but at the expense of weight, total occupational size of the street, and fuel economy..i don't think so its just not practical.

I see value in a a compact to midsized Wagon/CrossoverSUV. Because it fits the basic needs of transportation of a family of my type

I see the value of a Compact to midsized Pickup because it fits the basic needs of work and overall daily production.

If i were a blue collar rual +3 person family , i could not see the value of any of those cars.. I would need a full cab 4x4 mid to fullsized truck.

You guys are forgetting that the average american family are blue collar workers, and work/family trucks are the highest selling vehicles in the continent with FORD, CHEVY, and TOYOTA leading the pack.

But this talk about a sporty compact Scion truck? sorry but i don't believe its going to sell. The target audience is all wrong. Young kids? with what work experience? at what geographical environment?

Sure I use my dads ford truck as much as my subaru wagon. But i cant use either of the two for the same jobs..