SCCA Time Trials National Program

[Shark_Bait88]

https://www.scca.com/articles/201052...ationwide-tour

Couldn't find a thread specific to this topic, so figured I might as well start one. Seems like there's a lot of potential with this, and the Twins could be pretty competitive in certain classes.

Rules: https://dk1xgl0d43mu1.cloudfront.net...pdf?1534660487

One part I found that needs clarification is that on pg. 14 it notes that SSC cars will be classed in S5, but then on page 35 it has them listed in S6.

[tony_r]

Here is a good article on SCCA TT Nationals which just happened.

Really looking forward to the start this. Expect a more customer focused experience a-la TNiA rather than the usual treatment with other programs, SCCA or otherwise.

I'll be involved & attending the Thunderhill Tour for sure. If the schedule works out I'll be at PIR too.

[Shark_Bait88]

Originally Posted by tony_r

Here is a good article on SCCA TT Nationals which just happened.

Really looking forward to the start this. Expect a more customer focused experience a-la TNiA rather than the usual treatment with other programs, SCCA or otherwise.

I'll be involved & attending the Thunderhill Tour for sure. If the schedule works out I'll be at PIR too.

I meant to share that article too. haha

At the very least I'll be spectating at GMR, gonna do my best to drive there though and possibly NCM too.

[14stu]

My region (Texas Region) has had a competitive TT program with a full series and points for the last 3 years. We were initially approached to help establish the national program and are hosting one of the tours next year.

All of the people running the National TT program from Lincoln are at the Runoffs and are currently unavailable to work on the program. The rule set has not been fleshed out and there are still lots of things to figure out before next year.

Our program fills every event we run (70+ cars at our standalone events) and we've even been able to make money for the last 2 years. The key to our success is having very simple rules and classes based off the SCCA autox classes since nearly all of our competitors are from solo (autox).

The national office came and observed our events, asked for our help, and then formed the Time Trial Board from club racers with little regard to accommodating dual use (autox and time trial) cars, especially CAM cars which would have to run with rollcages and fire suppression under the proposed rules.

I'm hoping they figure everything out, but they've got about 5weeks between when they'll start working and the first event. I'm just afraid that they're going to make this too much of a NASA clone and drive away too many people. We're worried that we'll have to drastically change our popular and successful program to meet the National rules (we'll have to for sanctioning and insurance purposes).

We've been sending lots of letters to Topeka, but they seem to have their own ideas about what they want (regardless of what we've learned building a template that could work anywhere).

[Shark_Bait88]

Originally Posted by 14stu

My region (Texas Region) has had a competitive TT program with a full series and points for the last 3 years. We were initially approached to help establish the national program and are hosting one of the tours next year.

All of the people running the National TT program from Lincoln are at the Runoffs and are currently unavailable to work on the program. The rule set has not been fleshed out and there are still lots of things to figure out before next year.

Our program fills every event we run (70+ cars at our standalone events) and we've even been able to make money for the last 2 years. The key to our success is having very simple rules and classes based off the SCCA autox classes since nearly all of our competitors are from solo (autox).

The national office came and observed our events, asked for our help, and then formed the Time Trial Board from club racers with little regard to accommodating dual use (autox and time trial) cars, especially CAM cars which would have to run with rollcages and fire suppression under the proposed rules.

I'm hoping they figure everything out, but they've got about 5weeks between when they'll start working and the first event. I'm just afraid that they're going to make this too much of a NASA clone and drive away too many people. We're worried that we'll have to drastically change our popular and successful program to meet the National rules (we'll have to for sanctioning and insurance purposes).

We've been sending lots of letters to Topeka, but they seem to have their own ideas about what they want (regardless of what we've learned building a template that could work anywhere).

Yeah, I've been reading some of the discussion around that on... another forum. I agree that there are some troubles with the rules. It's also a challenge when you're someone like me and trying to figure out how to prep a car that can run competitively in this and 86 Cup stock class.

For some of the Street/Sport discussion:

I don't think the tune is quite as much of a killer as some people are making it out to be, since it won't change much without a header (illegal in Sport class anyway). The ability of SSC cars to add more camber with the SPC bolts and RLCAs seems like more of a benefit on track to me than a tune without a header would be on a non-SSC car.

[steverife]

I haven't had time to read other comments anywhere, so this may be worn out, but...

I was pretty excited to be able to run some events for "fun" while using up some of my worn autocross tires. The one set of tires rule makes that a safety hazard without allowing for any kind of rain contingency.

[tony_r]

Originally Posted by 14stu

The key to our success is having very simple rules and classes based off the SCCA autox classes since nearly all of our competitors are from solo (autox).

Those two statements are at odds with each other.

Of all the things, the rules are the miss for me. SCCA just can't have a simple rulebook pretty much ever. It's way too much focus on dumb shit. That said, sorry national office isn't working out. I know that if they proposed what you have for out here on the west coast, they would get laughed off the track. It's already a hard sell as it is, since our local autocross people rarely hit the track.

[14stu]

Originally Posted by tony_r

Those two statements are at odds with each other.

Of all the things, the rules are the miss for me. SCCA just can't have a simple rulebook pretty much ever. It's way too much focus on dumb shit. That said, sorry national office isn't working out. I know that if they proposed what you have for out here on the west coast, they would get laughed off the track. It's already a hard sell as it is, since our local autocross people rarely hit the track.

The whole idea is to get new people to the track. Autox people are the target audience and if you can have rules they already understand and are prepped for all they have to do is sign up.

Our rule book is 13 pages and the first 9 are only for the event organizer.

The NASA people do NASA, the Club Racers do that, and everyone else at the track are either track members or first timers. If you want to get more people to the track you gotta find people who aren't already tracking and if you're trying to start an SCCA version of NASA you have an uphill battle stealing their participants.

In the Southwest Division there are right around 200 licensed club racers. We average nearly 150 drivers at our autox events (and there are 3 other autox clubs locally) with over 600 unique autox participants from the last 2 seasons just in our region, which makes for a much larger participant pool.

I just don't think it makes any sense to add another set of classing rules, especially ones that don't align with either Solo or Club Race. Without comprehensive or shared classing you'll end up with siloed competitors who either don't participate in multiple disciplines or quit one to do another.

No one wants to need a different car/build for autox, time trial, and club racing.

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by Shark_Bait88

For some of the Street/Sport discussion:

I don't think the tune is quite as much of a killer as some people are making it out to be, since it won't change much without a header (illegal in Sport class anyway). The ability of SSC cars to add more camber with the SPC bolts and RLCAs seems like more of a benefit on track to me than a tune without a header would be on a non-SSC car.

Not all classes are purely NA, tune can be pretty impactful to FI performance, they'd have to re-look at the balance of the rest of the Sport classes.

Sport and Tuner seem decently aligned with Street and Street touring but I haven't gone through it with a fine tooth comb.

IDK I'm thinking of this less like a SCCA Runoff and more like HPDE+ the real tossup is do I feel like sacrificing a set of RE71R to try and be competitive with my STX car or do I use a less competitive tire, and if I decide to not be competitive would I rather see if there's better seat time/dollar option to hit the track next year? No matter what I think I'll hit the track twice next year, but it'll be a toss up between scca at thill or some other group at Laguna. I need to do Sonoma at some point so that'll be the other one.

[tony_r]

Originally Posted by 14stu

The whole idea is to get new people to the track. Autox people are the target audience and if you can have rules they already understand and are prepped for all they have to do is sign up.

Our rule book is 13 pages and the first 9 are only for the event organizer.

The NASA people do NASA, the Club Racers do that, and everyone else at the track are either track members or first timers. If you want to get more people to the track you gotta find people who aren't already tracking and if you're trying to start an SCCA version of NASA you have an uphill battle stealing their participants.

In the Southwest Division there are right around 200 licensed club racers. We average nearly 150 drivers at our autox events (and there are 3 other autox clubs locally) with over 600 unique autox participants from the last 2 seasons just in our region, which makes for a much larger participant pool.

I just don't think it makes any sense to add another set of classing rules, especially ones that don't align with either Solo or Club Race. Without comprehensive or shared classing you'll end up with siloed competitors who either don't participate in multiple disciplines or quit one to do another.

No one wants to need a different car/build for autox, time trial, and club racing.

Not a lot can afford all three seriously, in terms of time and most in money. Building classes to whatever theoretical car can do all three is setup for failure. Most of the cases you have people who do some mix of the two, and if they do all 3 they have another car for the more hardcore road race stuff. At least, that is my observation out here.

Silo'ing already happens and in SFR likely a lot more than what any other parts of the country experience. There is just too much to compete with occurring 24/7/365. There are other factors at play for us, too.

In the SFR SCCA wheelhouse, there is a large divide between Road Race and Autocross. Almost no cross-pollination happens. We basically have a liason to the Road Race board, and that's about all the talking between the two. There are some who do autocross and trackdays, but I don't think I've seen a road race guy come out and run a full season autocross in a while. And same goes for vise-versa. A national ruleset mimicing what you guys already have out there would not work for us.

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by tony_r

A national ruleset mimicing what you guys already have out there would not work for us.

Isn't the whole point of all the above posts that it's really hard to make a ruleset that unites the existing bodies and niches? There probably isn't a single region in the nation that isn't running at least two rulesets for varying grassroots motorsports.

I mean most people know that the next argument is going to be open ended vs clamped down rulesets and that this new set is both ends of the spectrum to everyone.

[tony_r]

I'm of the opinion that while this is not perfect, it's a lot better than running Solo rules (which are a mess). It's a good middle ground.

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by tony_r

I'm of the opinion that while this is not perfect, it's a lot better than running Solo rules (which are a mess). It's a good middle ground.

It's a good starting point, a pretty clean slate, if someone comes in and preps to the limits of the class it'll get weird like every other ruleset (Hollis already talking about carbon fiber flywheels and fd swaps lol).

Tone of the event will be everything, the level of competition, expense, safety, etc. I'm not bitter enough to wish unsuccess upon it, it will jive with some and not with others.

I don't know what to think about the tire allowance (1 set per weekend) and seat time, but I should probably just shut my mouth until I experience it, worst case I show up with a used fast set and a slow set not worried about having any tread left on the fast set by the end of the weekend and have a good time.

[steverife]

For the 1 set of tires thing, I do care about autocross and it will be my primary focus. These events (and CMP and NCM are close) would be supplemental.

I either face the option of risking running really worn down tires in the rain, skipping sessions or maybe the event, or risking burning down my full tread tires by running them in the dry and then needing to replace those.

...and I don't really see it as changing anything. People will still "need" to bring additional tires in case of some kind of incident.