Tesla Cyber Truck (Most Hideous Truck/Tank Ever)

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

I'm still not getting the statement. It sounds like you are saying Tesla has brilliantly convinced many people in the industry and their buyers that their vehicles are premium when they are not, just like Apple has convinced the industry and buyers that their products are premium. ...

See you did get it.

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by Dadhawk

See you did get it.

I just don't agree on both fronts.

I remember when the iPhone came out and I had a Razor and then a Samsung Blackjack. Night and day different. When the iPhone 4 came out with Gorilla glass on both sides, a stainless steal band, a UI that was far ahead of the rest still, etc. The competition had worse battery life, yet they had bigger phones, plastic around, bla bla. The Apple was clearly premium. The response was to make massive phones to improve battery life, user experience and be able to fit fractured components into a housing.

These days, the competition makes more expensive phones for their flagship models like the foldable phones, but the Apple products are still class leading in battery life (volume for volume), materials, build quality, security, UI function, ease of use, integration, etc. You can pull out a unibody MacBook Pro versus any aluminum unibody competitor and pull out a microscope, and you can see the obvious difference like you might do to compare of genuine Rolex versus a fake. Android watches' battery life are terrible (bad UI optimization with the hardware, and the size is similar because the watch sizes can't be gigantic to make up the difference). The biggest complaint with Apple are cost for performance when premium packaging and materials aren't a factor like someone can get a giant tower or bulky and heavy gaming laptop that out performs the Macbook. Price for what you get is actually pretty good when you really do an apples to apples comparison. For instance, the Ultra Apple Watch came out, and it is priced lower than the Garmin and other competitors, and even though it is titanium, larger than the previous version, bigger battery, more features, it it just $50 more than the stainless steel Apple Watch. I could go on.

Apple gets a lot of hate because they also get a lot of fans, so I think that is where you are seeing the connection. People don't see the premium build and packaging and performance to warrant the premium price because they don't care. Some don't like the closed UI and don't want to jailbreak an Apple device to make it open. I use to do that, but these days, I just don't care and would rather not have to deal with Android like malware, crashing, poor performance, and security issues.

They are now over 50% of smart phones in the US. At my work, almost everyone has an iPhone except a few. Twenty-four people in one group for ED techs and two that aren't. In my nursing school, in my last three clinical rotation group text messages, only one person out of nineteen. Just my anecdotal experience. Over 100 million people in the US have an Apple Watch, so almost 30% of people...probably close to half of adults aged 18-65. How many people even wore any type of watch before the Apple Watch took over? Not 30% of everyone. I have several guys at work who own Tag Heuers, Grand Seiko, Omegas and a doc has a Rolex, but all also have an Apple Watch as their daily. That is a lot of people that have been convinced that Apple is selling basic products at premium prices. That is a bold claim made without explanation, once again.

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

I just don't agree on both fronts.

And that's OK.

On Apple, just because people prefer it does not make it "premium" it just makes it a preference. Also, we all know once you get in their "universe" it's difficult to get out (as it is with Android).

My 5 year-old Google Pixel 2XL suffers none of the issues you attribute to Android and it's battery still lasts for 24 hours or more. The Verizon Droid I had the 5 years from that performed equally as well.

The 3 year old iPad I have out of necessity (most aviation related apps only run on iOS) started with a battery life 8 hours, and now basically can't make it 3 without having to be charged. Not good.

Same with Tesla. People preferred it because, frankly, it was the only game in town for a long time, and still is the product with the most availability and convenience. None of that makes it a premium or luxury product to me. The only thing about Tesla of substance different than other EVs is the charging network. That I will grant you is a premium solution.

[NoHaveMSG]

I hated my Iphone 7, 8, and 10. Liked my S7 I had right before the 10. I have an Iphone 13 and a pixel 6a now. The 6a is okay but I don't like lack of wireless charging(the pixel 7 has it), the 13 is pretty good.

Both sides make good and bad product. I'll judge the individual product and not just assume because it comes from one brand it is better/worse.

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by Dadhawk

And that's OK.

On Apple, just because people prefer it does not make it "premium" it just makes it a preference. Also, we all know once you get in their "universe" it's difficult to get out (as it is with Android).

Yet their market share is growing and less people have Android. But what you said is not my point. Your point is the product isn't premium, and if it wasn't for Apple's brilliant marketing convincing people it is premium when it is not then people would see that fact. Essentially, people are paying premium prices for an economy product because there is an inflated value based on it having an Apple logo on it. I'm pointing out that you are suggesting that in the US over 50% of smartphone users of the 298 million users, over 100 million Apple Watch users and who knows how many headphone, AirPods, Mac, Macbook owners have been paying Lexus prices for their Toyota quality phones, watches and computers. That is your claim. My claim is that your claim sounds ridiculous because it involves the convincing of so many people.

I'm struggling with the ad populum nature of my position too, but I'm not making a claim about what something is, that it is premium because it is popular. I'm making a claim about the likelihood that a conspiracy is implausible based on the scope of the deception. There is a distinction.

Listen, there are a lot of gullible idiots in the US. Recently, a poll showed that 60% of Americans believed the world was less than 6k-10k years old. We aren't the brightest or most educated bunch, but given the option of buying a Pixel Pro for $900 or the same size iPhone 14 Pro Max for $1100, people seem to be fine paying the extra $200 for a similar premium phone. My last phone was a iPhone 6 before I bought the 12 mini (I like smaller phones). The extra hundred bucks over another 6 years is equal to an extra $1.36/month, and for that, I will have better battery life, better performance, free updates, etc. and it will work inside the ecosystem of products seamlessly, including my M1 MacBook Pro, watch, applepay, etc. I think people can easily rationalize paying the $200 difference for a similar premium phone because it just isn't that much of a difference in price over the use of the device. It doesn't matter that it is 20% more expensive when the use is so high, and the price premium per use is so small; we are talking pennies per day, and fractions of pennies per use.

I've been shocked by my M1 MacBook over my previous Intel MacBook. I own a Windows device too for tuning, and it wasn't cheap. Build quality from ten feet away and specs on paper might look similar, but in my hands and in use, night and day difference. If I used it like I use my MacBook Pro, I would probably spend more money over time on battery replacements or needing to upgrade the computer, so maybe I'm saving money. Buy once, cry once.

https://techcrunch.com/2020/11/17/ye...blow-you-away/

Originally Posted by Dadhawk

My 5 year-old Google Pixel 2XL suffers none of the issues you attribute to Android and it's battery still lasts for 24 hours or more. The Verizon Droid I had the 5 years from that performed equally as well.

The 3 year old iPad I have out of necessity (most aviation related apps only run on iOS) started with a battery life 8 hours, and now basically can't make it 3 without having to be charged. Not good.

Big phones with big batteries tend to do fine for most people, which is one reason why Android devices went big. It was the best way to overcome the packaging and efficiency deficits, while adding value with a big screen. It was a good strategy. It is what a lot of computers do; they just make them thicker with heavier components and bigger batteries. Compare the iPad to the same size Android tablet of your choice, and the iPad will win on battery every time. Put it through the same use over time and the benchmarks are even more obvious.

I think people figure these things out. Light users probably feel fine with an economy phone and don't get the fuss. Maybe something big with less premium materials that can compensate in the battery department with extra weight isn't a big deal. Maybe they don't mind if apps aren't optimized for their phone like they are for the iPhones because the UI experience isn't that important for a light users. They just want a bulk of functions at a decent price. Even spending an extra $2/month over five years for something more premium, even in the Android ecosystem just doesn't matter to them or is a big deal.

Originally Posted by Dadhawk

Same with Tesla. People preferred it because, frankly, it was the only game in town for a long time, and still is the product with the most availability and convenience. None of that makes it a premium or luxury product to me. The only thing about Tesla of substance different than other EVs is the charging network. That I will grant you is a premium solution.

Tesla Model S Plaid is $114k for Bugatti performance at Porsche Carrera S prices. It isn't a luxury car like the Carrera isn't a luxury car, but it is definitely premium like the Carrera is premium. On the base Model 3 like the base model of BMWs, we start to get into a point where a heavily optioned economy car starts to be priced similar, and the superficial materials and features start feeling the same. Get into the minutia and what is under the skin by watching a Munro video comparing the Tesla to other EVs and cars in its class, and it isn't an economy build. Aesthetic design is entirely subjective.

Value: Premium performance/range/charging, premium glass, premium hardware under the car, premium tech, top crash safety. A heavily optioned or high-end-economy car will probably seem similar to their simple and lower-end-premium interior build/materials and features. Compare a Tesla to the Bolt, Munro says the Tesla has premium materials, and the Bolt has an economy dash with entire economy rear door cards, which is economy standards. Material wise, it doesn't compare, but that isn't to say the Tesla is as detailed or fancy as a Mercedes or BMW. Overall, the score puts the car in a premium class. People who say the Model S is luxury are confusing premium and luxury as synonyms. They would also say a Porsche 911 is luxury when it is premium, but it is a little semantics. Regardless, the premium price is entirely warranted in the premium build, experience and value that goes well beyond what an economy car/brand typically offers.

[Irace86.2.0]

Maybe it is also worth mentioning, despite the Tesla fanboy vibes, my first choice in BEV by a far margin is the Hyundai IONIQ 5.

[soundman98]

the confusing part about tesla has always been that they started upmarket and are moving downmarket in pricing.

every other automotive company has historically always started cheap and moved upmarket over time. it's how we got cadillac and lexus variations of chevy's and toyota's.

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by soundman98

the confusing part about tesla has always been that they started upmarket and are moving downmarket in pricing.

every other automotive company has historically always started cheap and moved upmarket over time. it's how we got cadillac and lexus variations of chevy's and toyota's.

There are several other examples, but I agree that most manufacturers seem to have started cheap. I’m not a robust historian, so maybe that is just my perception too.

Obviously Rivian and Lucid are following the same game plan. Low volume and high margin expensive cars makes sense until they can build their ability for higher volumes. This works if a manufacturer is a premium/luxury brand. Make a flagship and work down.

Economy brands may start the opposite way where the cars are cheap and simple, and they grow quality over time, moving to more expensive and higher build quality. Maybe they go from cheap motorcycles to cheap cars in third world markets and then to better cars in larger, richer markets and so on. Many brands started out making other vehicles first. BMW made planes. Lamborghini made tractors before creating a car company. Many legacy brands like Mercedes and Ford were there at the beginning. Some were luxury brands from the start like Cadillac, but joined economy brands, unlike Toyota or Honda that built luxury brands from their economy brands.

One ICE example that comes to mind: Hummer released the H1, and they slowly worked down to the H2 and then the H3 over time.

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

. BMW made planes....

You may already know this but BMW stopped making planes as a requirement of the Treaty of Versailles after World War 1. It wasn't because they decided to focus on ground based vehicles.

[spike021]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

Maybe it is also worth mentioning, despite the Tesla fanboy vibes, my first choice in BEV by a far margin is the Hyundai IONIQ 5.

Seen several of these on the road here in the South Bay and I honestly prefer the lines of the MachE for a similar size (I think?).

I feel like these are trying to be too futuristic in a way that just doesn't look very good.

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by Dadhawk

You may already know this but BMW stopped making planes as a requirement of the Treaty of Versailles after World War 1. It wasn't because they decided to focus on ground based vehicles.

Right. Interesting what might have been if they never switched to motorcycles, even though they did go back to making airplane engines. That probably set them down a path to motorsports and cars, but maybe they would have gotten there anyways. Maybe they would be doing more with jet engines.

My point was just that they didn’t have to start from scratch. They were making engines. They bought a car company and stuck an aircraft engine in the car. They had manufacturing expertise and facilities. They may have needed to start with low volume high value/quality first like Tesla.

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by spike021

Seen several of these on the road here in the South Bay and I honestly prefer the lines of the MachE for a similar size (I think?).

I feel like these are trying to be too futuristic in a way that just doesn't look very good.

I think it’s actually the opposite of futuristic. It gives me DeLorean 80’s retro vibes. If it is futuristic, it is the 80’s concept of futuristic, which I dig the bold design.

https://www.autoblog.com/2021/01/13/...-5-45-concept/


This concept is even better.

[Sasquachulator]

Originally Posted by spike021

Seen several of these on the road here in the South Bay and I honestly prefer the lines of the MachE for a similar size (I think?).

I feel like these are trying to be too futuristic in a way that just doesn't look very good.

Ive seen one of those near my house. They look alot bigger than they appear.

From pics you'd think its like a Corolla sized compact car but the thing almost looks midsize in person.

[Irace86.2.0]

Sandy Munro rants about his critics. “Tesla is making 30-40% profit margins.” This YouTuber says the $35k Tesla is here already based on inflation, and he talks about what happens to Tesla’s profits when FSD finally goes live. What would happen to their profits if 100 million cars worldwide some day started offering entertainment in their cars? They might get a chunk of Netflix. They might start selling games and other services. Interesting discussion.

Original video and look @Dadhawk, optional buttons!