05-06-2020, 11:36 PM | #43 |
Join Date: Jul 2012
Drives: S2000 CR
Location: Orange County
Posts: 14,533
Thanks: 8,920
Thanked 14,179 Times in 6,835 Posts
Mentioned: 966 Post(s)
Tagged: 14 Thread(s)
|
S2k steering feel is numb. You have to just trust it, but also know, that a well set up s2k will essentially never run out of front grip.
|
The Following User Says Thank You to CSG Mike For This Useful Post: | Ohio Enthusiast (05-07-2020) |
05-06-2020, 11:51 PM | #44 |
T64-416Ax3=13,140shp
Join Date: Feb 2012
Drives: 2002 AP1 and 2015 F-150 EB (DD)
Location: NWA
Posts: 878
Thanks: 783
Thanked 372 Times in 221 Posts
Mentioned: 21 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
|
I would like to add, after reading CSG Mike's comments, that as far as "speed" goes both are pretty similar in this regard despite the advantage the S2K carries in power. So I certainly wouldn't let the power/speed stats change your opinion on which car to choose. It really comes down to personal tastes and for me, the S2K is just a special car which appeals to my inner Honda fanboi since I was in high school and college during the early to mid-90s when the Japanese were playing their A-game with affordable, well-built, sporty cars. I also dislike the FA20, but I'm sure some of that is it lacks the character/soul of the F20/F22C engines.
With all that being said, I still think about getting a used Twin and turning it into a track car because it's still a great chassis and there is a ton of aftermarket support that won't break the bank if you are trying to stay on a budget. (I know budget's are subjective to everyone, but you get the idea)
__________________
|
05-07-2020, 02:39 AM | #45 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2012
Drives: 22 BRZ (Previously 13 FR-S)
Location: USA
Posts: 5,794
Thanks: 2,164
Thanked 4,242 Times in 2,220 Posts
Mentioned: 48 Post(s)
Tagged: 2 Thread(s)
|
Quote:
Regarding power, I actually talked to him again about the pull we did. He said my FR-S pulled .75 - 1 car length on him right after his 1-2 shift, making him think it was the clutch delay valve. After that, he said we were even until 80. I had a feeling it would be close based on AP1's I've encountered at the track, but I thought the AP2's made a bit more jam. We're planning some more canyon runs in the future so we'll have a chance to re-test after he deletes the CDV. I actually think driving my FR-S caught him off-guard. The next few days, he kept saying he couldn't believe how well my FR-S was setup and that he was so impressed by it. Thinking back, I have to say that in its current state (mild weight reduction, e85, coilovers, BBK, tires) I also preferred driving my FR-S over his stock AP2 in the canyons. Overall acceleration was similar but the FA20 torque spread on e85 was wider (4500-7500 vs. 6000-8200), the T2 coilovers handled imperfect roads better, and the Wilwood BBK was of course better. The driving position and forward visibility also seemed better on the FR-S. I think the only things I preferred on the AP2 were the shifter and the engine sound. BTW for the AP2 owners out there, this isn't a knock on the that car in anyway. I think it's amazing what Honda packaged into a stock car 20 years ago. But the hype never matched reality, at least for me. That said, my opinion will probably change whenever I get the chance to drive one at the track (and especially with similar mods). I get the feeling you can't truly appreciate an S2000 until you're in a setting where you can safely explore the limits of its chassis. Lastly - someone asked about comparative steering feel. My friend actually did comment he thought the steering feedback was better in the FR-S. While I agree (and that feedback helps build confidence when approaching the limit), I think it's such a minor drawback on the S2000 as to be barely worth mentioning. Just my 2c, others may feel differently.
__________________
"Never run out of real estate, traction, and ideas at the same time."
2022 BRZ Build 2013 FR-S Build Last edited by DarkSunrise; 05-07-2020 at 02:54 AM. |
|
The Following User Says Thank You to DarkSunrise For This Useful Post: | Ohio Enthusiast (05-07-2020) |
05-07-2020, 04:15 AM | #46 |
Join Date: Jul 2012
Drives: S2000 CR
Location: Orange County
Posts: 14,533
Thanks: 8,920
Thanked 14,179 Times in 6,835 Posts
Mentioned: 966 Post(s)
Tagged: 14 Thread(s)
|
AP1 and AP2 have idential AUC, but AP2 read higher peak power on the dyno. This is why I always preach powerband, not peak numbers!
Fresh dampers on an s2k will make a world of difference. Stock s2k dampers are fantatic, and the rears even have remote reservoirs *on the factory dampers*. As with most cars by 60k miles, the factory dampers are pretty dead. |
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to CSG Mike For This Useful Post: | DarkSunrise (05-07-2020), mrg666 (05-07-2020) |
05-07-2020, 08:36 AM | #47 | |
pessimistic skeptic
Join Date: Apr 2016
Drives: '14 FR-S Monogram AT JRSC
Location: Upstate NY
Posts: 1,767
Thanks: 1,695
Thanked 1,035 Times in 684 Posts
Mentioned: 14 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
|
Quote:
|
|
05-07-2020, 09:07 AM | #48 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2011
Drives: '23 BRZ
Location: Providence, RI
Posts: 4,585
Thanks: 1,377
Thanked 3,892 Times in 2,033 Posts
Mentioned: 85 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
|
Quote:
|
|
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to ZDan For This Useful Post: |
05-07-2020, 09:11 AM | #49 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2014
Drives: 2020 Hakone
Location: London, Ont
Posts: 69,845
Thanks: 61,656
Thanked 108,286 Times in 46,456 Posts
Mentioned: 2495 Post(s)
Tagged: 50 Thread(s)
|
They posted at 8:58 and logged out the last time at 8:58. Probably a regular that just made a new account to shit on an old post since they don't have the balls to do it in the open!
__________________
Racecar spelled backwards is Racecar, because Racecar.
|
05-07-2020, 10:12 AM | #50 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2012
Drives: 22 BRZ (Previously 13 FR-S)
Location: USA
Posts: 5,794
Thanks: 2,164
Thanked 4,242 Times in 2,220 Posts
Mentioned: 48 Post(s)
Tagged: 2 Thread(s)
|
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
"Never run out of real estate, traction, and ideas at the same time."
2022 BRZ Build 2013 FR-S Build |
||
05-07-2020, 10:33 AM | #51 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2011
Drives: '23 BRZ
Location: Providence, RI
Posts: 4,585
Thanks: 1,377
Thanked 3,892 Times in 2,033 Posts
Mentioned: 85 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
|
Quote:
Peak piston acceleration for 2.2 at 8580rpm roughly equal to 2.0 at 9000... |
|
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to ZDan For This Useful Post: |
05-07-2020, 04:14 PM | #52 |
Join Date: Jul 2012
Drives: S2000 CR
Location: Orange County
Posts: 14,533
Thanks: 8,920
Thanked 14,179 Times in 6,835 Posts
Mentioned: 966 Post(s)
Tagged: 14 Thread(s)
|
With an otherwise stock car, you don't want to lower VTEC too much; 5200 is about the lowest you want to go, but it already improves the powerband a ton. The 6000 VTEC is mainly for marketing purposes.
|
05-07-2020, 04:47 PM | #53 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2011
Drives: '23 BRZ
Location: Providence, RI
Posts: 4,585
Thanks: 1,377
Thanked 3,892 Times in 2,033 Posts
Mentioned: 85 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
|
Quote:
Looks like this guy did fine knocking VTEC rpm down to 4100, looks about the right spot for it. For this engine anyway... https://www.s2ki.com/forums/s2000-na...ashpro-857902/ |
|
05-07-2020, 04:49 PM | #54 | |
Join Date: Jul 2012
Drives: S2000 CR
Location: Orange County
Posts: 14,533
Thanks: 8,920
Thanked 14,179 Times in 6,835 Posts
Mentioned: 966 Post(s)
Tagged: 14 Thread(s)
|
Quote:
|
|
The Following User Says Thank You to CSG Mike For This Useful Post: | ZDan (05-07-2020) |
05-07-2020, 04:54 PM | #55 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2011
Drives: '23 BRZ
Location: Providence, RI
Posts: 4,585
Thanks: 1,377
Thanked 3,892 Times in 2,033 Posts
Mentioned: 85 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
|
|
05-08-2020, 12:00 AM | #56 | |
T64-416Ax3=13,140shp
Join Date: Feb 2012
Drives: 2002 AP1 and 2015 F-150 EB (DD)
Location: NWA
Posts: 878
Thanks: 783
Thanked 372 Times in 221 Posts
Mentioned: 21 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
|
Quote:
If I wanted great fuel economy, I wouldn't be driving a sports car. Plenty of econo-boxes out there that are more practical for DD. At least for now, people can still have some say on what they buy and drive, though as pointed out in many other threads across a vast ocean of car forums, the clock is ticking because of all the regulations that keep getting rammed down everyone's throat. I'd also say newer isn't always better, plenty of examples for that if I wanted to get picky. It seems like you are wanting to defend your purchase more than add to the thread for someone maybe wanting to see what the pros/cons are of these vehicles that are being compared. To add to why I would choose an S2K over the Twins, let me explain in greater detail: 1. Desirability-These cars aren't being made anymore, there's a limited number available at any given time, the car was a "one off" by Honda at the height of its glory days, and there will probably never be another car like this unless it's some sort of exotic, low production type car (I know "desirability" is somewhat subjective, but the market does have some say in this and there is a reason the S2K is going up in value) 2. Engineering-The car is a marvel of engineering in many ways and is well built. Many examples out there with over 200K on the motors and still going strong, many with FI at power levels twice what it came from the factory. 3. Engine-Goes with #2, you not only get a 9/8K redline from the factory, but an engine with all forged internals (probably why they take to boost with little to no issues). 4. Ease of maintenance-You can really start to appreciate this if you end up having to do any work on your own car. The MY2000-2005 are basically a mechanical car, I don't even have a TPMS system in my 2002. It is refreshing to know that you can do pretty much any job in your own garage with the right tools. Everything is easily accessible on the engine, it took me 5 minutes to change my coil packs when I got the car. Add another 10 to do the sparks plugs, but since I had a shop the only works on Hondas/Acuras do my valve adjustment/AP2 retainers upgrade when I got the car, I had them do the spark plugs while there were working on the car. (time will tell how well the FA20 holds up, but ease of maintenance is certainly not a strong point for this engine layout and engine bay) 5. Fun factor-Now this is certainly subjective, but again, even if the Twins are slightly faster than a S2K when comparing stock to stock, the S2K just feels a lot more fun to drive in stock form. I'm sure a moderately modified Twin would possible change this equation. While this is certainly not everything, it's the major points for me when comparing these two/three vehicles. I don't dislike the Twins at all and from what I have been told by the guys at CSG, the 2017+ cars had some major changes to suspension that made these cars better. I even stated I have considered owning another one, because it would be a great track car and easily replaced if I completely destroyed it, whereas smashing an S2K isn't something I want to experience because of how much these cars are starting to command for a decent example. And for the record, I don't hate the FA20. I think it's a "good" engine for what it is. I just don't think it's "great" and I feel this was the one major weakness of the design and I'm not even saying it needed "moar powah" it just seemed underwhelming in stock form. Certainly modifications can change this equation but a) that costs money b) it voids your warranty if you have a newer car and not a good idea if you rely on it for your DD and c) when I bought my FRS, I was one of the first so this engine was an unknown commodity so I didn't want to risk it at the time. Certainly this isn't true anymore because we now know what it's strengths and weaknesses are. To sum up, I know you saw this post on the GR86 thread, but I think it is a good summation of how I feel about the FA20 when comparing it to a F20C/F22C or just about any other Honda/Toyota engine: Originally Posted by ichitaka05 View Post 2 things to note here & this isn't pin pointing at you only, but to everyone who thinking about FA24 is a solution. 1. I've talked with few engineers from Toyota side and they're still baffled on why Subaru to making the way they're making their engine. Engine is so unbalanced. Even in US, engine shops have seen huge difference in weight in each cylinders. Hell, if Honda engineers see it, they'll laugh at how bad it is. Even GR engineers stated that, if they fully build engine FA20 the way Toyota build it, it can easily push 220 safely and proven that w 86GRMN. But Subaru doesn't not want to change the way they build the engine (for cost cutting or whatever) they'll make hit or miss engine aka ticking bomb. It took long time to Tada-san tell them how to build this FA engine. They didn't want to hear what he gotta say, but had to listen. Now, they use that knowledge to make FA20DIT, which I would say damn good engine. BUT that information was giving from Toyota side, so you can take it as a grain of salt... I feel like history of EJ engine pretty much proven this. BUT that can be said the same w Toyota US dealership mech too, so Toyota can't really say much lol 2. List stock Subaru 4 cylinder boxer engine that's over 2L that have higher rpm than FA20 or EJ20. I'll wait. Cuz there aren't any. Even the famous 22B (EJ22) can't rev higher than EJ20. Look at JDM STI vs USDM STI redline. Yeah... it's different for sure, cuz JDM uses EJ207 vs USDM uses EJ257. That 0.5L make HUGE difference. So IDK why ppl are so hyped about FA24 gonna be equipped in next gen. Technically, FA24 was build for heavy car aka having ton of power low end w no power high end. Of course, that can be changed, but Subaru gonna change THAT much difference? Hm... questionable. Subaru's boxer engine already dying at high end from NA form adding extra 0.4L with extra weight on the car is like making fat person sprint. Don't get me wrong, you'll feel a lot more tq than current 86, but what do you get at the high end? Nothing. Oh wait, after tq dip, you got +-1k rpm til it'll hit the redline. Oh~ you thought tq dip was only FA thing? FA20 causes more tq dip than other Subaru boxer engine due to switch of DI to PI, but tq dip is in EVERY Subaru boxer engine. Recently Subaru is hiding it well w turbo spooling early. With that said, take my info as a grain of salt. I don't have ALL the info of next gen. All I can say is adding power or spec on the paper isn't always the answer. This car, 86/BRZ was the example of that. Now, greedy people want a bit of juice from this car is making this car isn't what made this car is. Not everything is bad from next gen (I've heard few good infos), but we can only hope and guestimate.
__________________
|
|
|
|
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
Mom's Reaction to FRS, S2000 and Miata | Dezoris | Scion FR-S / Toyota 86 GT86 General Forum | 20 | 11-15-2014 02:22 AM |
Any wisdom from IS300 owners? How bout Miata or S2000 owners? | Ocean-Grown 86 | Member's Car Journals | 7 | 08-22-2014 11:52 AM |
Track Video: BRZ Passes worked Miata, unable to be passed by prepped s2000 | gmookher | FR-S & 86 Photos, Videos, Wallpapers, Gallery Forum | 1 | 11-06-2012 01:01 PM |
FIAT 500 | 7thgear | Other Vehicles & General Automotive Discussions | 25 | 03-18-2012 02:38 AM |
Fiat 500 | Marrk | Other Vehicles & General Automotive Discussions | 8 | 11-28-2011 04:29 AM |