Is anyone else on the fence due to the engine choice?

[BoostJunkie]

Originally Posted by Franisco

Not to be obnoxious Ichi, because I agree with your argument, but the 3S isn't legal in the states anymore..

How come?

[Midship Runabout]

Originally Posted by ichitaka05

2ZZ? Really they won't meet modern emission standards? Have you ever heard of Lotus Elise? Last time I checked, they still putting OLD 1ZZ & 2ZZ. Man, they must be stupid! Why they put those OLD engines.

Not anymore.
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=759

[ichitaka05]

Originally Posted by Dixie Normous

Not anymore.
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=759

Still 2010 Lotus Elise, they're still using 2ZZ. 2011 & 2012 IDK, but current status, until we see the next Lotus 2 seat MR car (not Evora), I hold my statement to be true.

[Franisco]

Originally Posted by BoostJunkie

How come?

Emissions. The last GT4 (or All-trac) we got was the ST185. Also, they stopped bringing the MR2 during that time period. I remember reading somewhere that the 3rd gen 3S was illegal in the states.

[BoostJunkie]

Originally Posted by Franisco

Emissions. The last GT4 (or All-trac) we got was the ST185. Also, they stopped bringing the MR2 during that time period. I remember reading somewhere that the 3rd gen 3S was illegal in the states.

Wow sounds like they got lazy, emissions isn't to hard to fix, or you would think as long as there's a market for the product

[Franisco]

I'm sure those cars went the way of every good tuner from the 90's. The product gets too expensive, people stop buying them. Usually, these types are cars already aren't sold in very high numbers. And the company pulls the plug.

On another note, I would give my firstborn for an ST205

[BoostJunkie]

Originally Posted by Franisco

I'm sure those cars went the way of every good tuner from the 90's. The product gets too expensive, people stop buying them. Usually, these types are cars already aren't sold in very high numbers. And the company pulls the plug.

On another note, I would give my firstborn for an ST205

Lol, I might have to wait till my second one, the first one I've kinda grown attached to

[Conor]

Originally Posted by ichitaka05

wait, you're comparing 2 Liter vs 3.5 Liter and saying it's very reasonable light compact? I'm sorry, how much that sucker weight and how long is the engine? boxer block is full aluminum just like 2GR minus 2 less cylinder weights. I know for damn sure 2GR isn't no where near 17 inches in length. IIRC 2GR is looking at 24" ~ 27" (at least).

2GR weighs about 360 pounds, loaded up, as I recall.

Originally Posted by ichitaka05

Putting light weight car a heavier engine isn't make serious discern of a handling difference? No offense, but I highly doubt that. It's like saying putting v6 engine into Miata. I don't care how lightweight is that v6 engine is, unless that v6 engine is lighter than 1.6~2 liter i4 engine, it damn make a difference in handling. What cuz your MR2 has v6 swapped in there, so it's same w FR cars?

We're not talking about a 2,000 pound Miata or Corolla. This thing is almost certain to tip the scales around 3,000 pounds.

And I'm arguing that 99.9% of people wouldn't be able to tell the difference in handling thanks to a ~50-75 pound difference in weight that's CENTERED in the chassis (behind the front wheels, in front of the rear). The different would be very, very minimal.

And my MR2 has nothing to do with this.. except that the V6 would still be mounted behind the front wheels and, as such, a little extra weight would have negligible difference.

You're just hammering the old-fashioned "4-cylinder power is the only way to go!" attitude into the ground. 4-cyls are okay, but they suck compared to a nice, compact V6 or V8 with greater displacement.

I love my 4AGE-powered '86 MR2, but the 4AGE is a raging pile of shit compared to new stuff and the car would perform a million times better with virtually any newer 4-cyl powertrain in it.

Originally Posted by ichitaka05

What engineering cost standpoint? THEY'RE MAKING NEW CAR. What cost standpoint you're looking at? When they made new Altezza/IS350 why they made 2GR in there instead of 1JZ or 2JZ? Engineering cost standpoint, it's a waste to put new engine in there. They still put that 2GR in there.

Did you even read what I wrote? The 2GRFSE is already developed. They'd have to design some mounting brackets and bolt it in, basically. With the boxer engine they're not just throwing a Subaru drive train in (from what I understand)..

The 2JZ died because 1) aside from the turbo version, it was a raging pile of shit that got horrible fuel economy, 2) belched smog emissions and 3) made shitty power compared to the alloy-block V6s used in other Toyotas.

Originally Posted by ichitaka05

It's gonna be new Yamaha engineered 2 Liter boxer engine. Yes, it's gonna cost em for tooling and blah blah blah, but from this time on when they wanna use that engine in different Toyota cars, they have it and don't have to spent more money on it. Just first time is always an expensive. Toyota cares? Hell no, they had a check written $15m for penalty fee for stuck pedals, but are they broke? Ha! Not even close.

You're making weird arguments based on "they don't care.." which isn't true. Money is the reason that Toyota doesn't make an AE86 anymore.. or an MR2.. or a Supra.. or even a Celica. Money is the name of the game and if you think Toyota is building the FT86 for fun, you don't understand how the business works.

If they can't make money off of something, they're not going to build it. Especially not the modern, shareholder-focused mega-corporate Toyota.

Originally Posted by ichitaka05

I hope you're trolling. 2ZZ? Really they won't meet modern emission standards? Have you ever heard of Lotus Elise? Last time I checked, they still putting OLD 1ZZ & 2ZZ. Man, they must be stupid! Why they put those OLD engines. How about 3S? Have you ever heard of Toyota Caldina, they still use OLD 3S-GTE engine.

Last time you checked? *facepalm* Is Toyota even building the Caldina anymore? And the last version of the Caldina 3SGTE was entirely different from the one we got in the US..

Originally Posted by ichitaka05

2GR have engine oil line problem, vibrations, and other problems. What, 2GR on 5th or 6th yr and already having problem? While ZZ & A engine been around 2~3 time more, used and they keep going. No wonder they still use em. Yeah, time to create new 2GR engine.

You have no idea what you're talking about. 2ZZGEs wear cams out trying to act like VTEC engines.. both 1ZZ and 2ZZs have problems with leaking water pumps among other things.. They're not perfect. No engine is. The ZZ series engines were raging piles of crap compared to the old S-series 4-cylinders..

Also, I've seen exactly ONE 2GR car have an oil line problem.. Recalls are safety-related and they're going to basically nuke the problem from orbit, especially after the gas pedal fiasco.

4AGEs blew head gaskets, leaked tons of oil (under warranty!) back in the 80s.. 7MGTEs blew tons of head gaskets... 3SGTEs aren't the reliable monsters people think they are. They leak, have tons of electronics issues, tend to run f***ing pig rich all the time...

Originally Posted by ichitaka05

Look, I'm not saying 2GR isn't great engine. They already made 6 cylinder FR engine. It's time to move on to 4 cylinder FR car now.

4-cylinder engines suck compared to a well-engineered 6-cyl or 8-cyl. It's just a fact. The only reason to use a 4-cyl is cost and economy. It's a compromise that hurts the ultimate performance of a car like this.

I think I'd be happy with a tweaked 4-cyl boxer engine in this car.. but there's no question that a proven V6 putting ~270+whp down wouldn't be better

[Conor]

And fo the last f***ing time, before more ricers whine.. I've already decided that I'd be totally happy with a peppy 4-cyl boxer engine in this car.

[BoostJunkie]

Ouch, why do we have to be ricers, why can't we just call us/them something else

[Matador]

Originally Posted by Conor

2GR weighs about 360 pounds, loaded up, as I recall.

As does the 1UZ V8. Toyota took a step Backwards this generation wrt engine weight.

Originally Posted by Conor

We're not talking about a 2,000 pound Miata or Corolla. This thing is almost certain to tip the scales around 3,000 pounds.

Says who? While you might be right, I don't think this thing will weight any more than 2700lbs. If it does (in NA trim) Toyota will have failed imho.

Originally Posted by Conor

And I'm arguing that 99.9% of people wouldn't be able to tell the difference in handling thanks to a ~50-75 pound difference in weight that's CENTERED in the chassis (behind the front wheels, in front of the rear). The different would be very, very minimal.

Ah, but you can't position the 2GR as far back as you could the boxer engine. The CoG would also be MUCH higher, and it's not just centering the weight, but lowering it as well. Further more, it would have design implications (aesthetic as well as aerodynamic) too. It would be impossible to make the hoodline as low, especially to comply with pedestrian saftey regulations.

Originally Posted by Conor

You're just hammering the old-fashioned "4-cylinder power is the only way to go!" attitude into the ground. 4-cyls are okay, but they suck compared to a nice, compact V6 or V8 with greater displacement.

Of course, but I think you fail to grasp that this car is no Supra. I love Toyota's V6 & V8 engines, but I think an engine should be well matched to the chassis to make a great car, and I do think that a bigger chassis would be better for a 2GR engine. Maybe if they decide to make a roadster for Lexus, stretching it ever so slightly and forgetting the 2 rear seats then a 2GR would be a perfect fit.

Originally Posted by Conor

I love my 4AGE-powered '86 MR2, but the 4AGE is a raging pile of shit compared to new stuff and the car would perform a million times better with virtually any newer 4-cyl powertrain in it.

I think calling it a "raging pile of shit" is a bit extreme, but what else do you expect from a 24+ year old engine? If the engines today weren't better then that would indeed make them raging piles of shit

Originally Posted by Conor

Did you even read what I wrote? The 2GRFSE is already developed. They'd have to design some mounting brackets and bolt it in, basically. With the boxer engine they're not just throwing a Subaru drive train in (from what I understand)..

Basically... they'd have to redesign the front end, find a manual transmission to go with it, probably put a bigger diff in the back, probably redesign the suspension geometries, bigger brakes... and the list goes on.

Originally Posted by Conor

The 2JZ died because 1) aside from the turbo version, it was a raging pile of shit that got horrible fuel economy, 2) belched smog emissions and 3) made shitty power compared to the alloy-block V6s used in other Toyotas.

For somebody who is supposed to know a lot, you really do talk a lot of shit.

Originally Posted by Conor

You're making weird arguments based on "they don't care.." which isn't true. Money is the reason that Toyota doesn't make an AE86 anymore.. or an MR2.. or a Supra.. or even a Celica. Money is the name of the game and if you think Toyota is building the FT86 for fun, you don't understand how the business works.

If they can't make money off of something, they're not going to build it. Especially not the modern, shareholder-focused mega-corporate Toyota.

The most sensible thing you have said... up to a point

Originally Posted by Conor

You have no idea what you're talking about. 2ZZGEs wear cams out trying to act like VTEC engines.. both 1ZZ and 2ZZs have problems with leaking water pumps among other things.. They're not perfect. No engine is. The ZZ series engines were raging piles of crap compared to the old S-series 4-cylinders..

There you go with the bullshit again....

Originally Posted by Conor

4AGEs blew head gaskets, leaked tons of oil (under warranty!) back in the 80s.. 7MGTEs blew tons of head gaskets... 3SGTEs aren't the reliable monsters people think they are. They leak, have tons of electronics issues, tend to run f***ing pig rich all the time...

Hmmm. GIGO.

Originally Posted by Conor

4-cylinder engines suck compared to a well-engineered 6-cyl or 8-cyl. It's just a fact. The only reason to use a 4-cyl is cost and economy. It's a compromise that hurts the ultimate performance of a car like this.

I think I'd be happy with a tweaked 4-cyl boxer engine in this car.. but there's no question that a proven V6 putting ~270+whp down wouldn't be better

It seems that for you, everything comes down to power, and that's what your problem is. Pull your head out of you ass, and just MAYBE, you could get what this car is about. No, I don't want Toyota to handicap the car (see MR-2 Spyder), but the car has to work for the pretty blonde who doesn't like to spend much on gas, or the wanna be cool eco geek as much as the hard core track nuts/sunday canyon racers like the people on this forum. As you said, if this car doesn't sell, we will have to go without after a generation or two. Furthermore, saying 4 cylinders are crap, is a huge injustice to the legendary 4 cylinder motors that have existed, and care fuck all about cost or economy.

[BoostJunkie]

Kinda hot in here or is it just me?

[Siriusly.Andrew]

Originally Posted by BoostJunkie

Kinda hot in here or is it just me?

Indeed - but this is where information is born I love reading these. Theres a wealth of knowledge in here, you just have to filter it out from the BS and try to be unbiased lol

[BoostJunkie]

Originally Posted by Siriusly.Andrew

Indeed - but this is where information is born I love reading these. Theres a wealth of knowledge in here, you just have to filter it out from the BS and try to be unbiased lol

Lol right...