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Old 08-02-2019, 04:48 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by biggie View Post
The pedal was no softer/harder than usual. Just no bite. Also I did not observed any smearing but I'll take the pads off anyway to make sure they are ok (before the next trackday).

Worth noting: I painted the calipers using K2 spray paint and it was completely carbonized after just 2 sessions (front only, in the back the paint is intact).

The problem is that I'm using the car as a daily also, so dedicated track pads are not a (convenient) option for me. I'm only going at ~10 trackdays per year but I'm really pushing the limits (I had quite a few "grass encounters" )

So yellowstuff with their 950C temperature rating seemed like a good compromise

Slotted StopTech rotors are just a bit more expensive than Centric (like 50$ for all 4) but I still need to find pads that can be used on the road as well.

Hawk DTC60 I think are track only.
Brake pads faded.

Everything discussed is all theoretical, but not validated. DTC60 is the bare minimum if anything at all, but be prepared to wash your car often so it doesn't discolor the paint where the dust touches.
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Old 08-02-2019, 04:48 PM   #16
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I am running Carbotech XP10's which I don't really care for on a Stoptech BBK. They are noisy, dusty, and I can smear them if I am not careful.

I am going to try the CSG C1's next.
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Old 08-02-2019, 04:49 PM   #17
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I am running Carbotech XP10's which I don't really care for on a Stoptech BBK. They are noisy, dusty, and I can smear them if I am not careful.

I am going to try the CSG C1's next.
Smearing indicates you're ran out of pad.
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Old 08-02-2019, 04:54 PM   #18
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HC 800+ are a compromise pad, and you'll outgrow them too quick to be worth it.

Pads are easy to change, but I daily drive track pads in the summer (lazy). My favorite pads so far have been the project mu club racers, not a huge fan of the GLoc R10's I currently have.
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Those are not HC800+, check by part number please. But yes, still compromise pads
Project Mu HC+ is a street pad. They are often called dual compound because of the capacity it has for complete newbies to track with. If you track, you use pads developed for track applications. Higher end track pads are more stable, more consistent, yield more life, and often make standard brake systems feel great. Standard track pads just survive and feel good. Once you sample a massive list of pads, it makes a strong case towards "you get what you paid for".

Like good tires with different categories of greatness, brake pads are the same. I'm certain we can get you running with the proper gear granted you're willing to take the advice.
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Old 08-02-2019, 04:55 PM   #19
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I had a rear brake pad fall out of the caliper at the end of Thompson CT main straight. The piston shot out and I lost most of the fluid. I don't know why but I did a brake check from 110 down to about 60, then went for the brakes again after a second and I had literally no pedal. Straight to the floor.



That was easily top 5 scariest things I've ever experienced.



Turned out I received the wrong rear DBA rotor and didn't think anything of it when I installed it. Premium vs Limited = limited is thicker and vented. I received a premium rotor. I'm dumb for not questioning that but I just wanted to get it out on the track. Really really stupid mistake.
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Old 08-02-2019, 05:24 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by CSG David View Post
Smearing indicates you're ran out of pad.

Mike and I have talked about my situation a while ago. Are the C1's close to the same coefficient of friction as the XP10's? I have not had a chance to get my car out much this year so if they are not I will replace them as a F/R set this year. If they are close I will swap the fronts out now cause I just flat do not like the way they feel on the front end.
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Old 08-02-2019, 05:41 PM   #21
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Another vote no on the HC+800. Had those pads and did not like them for track use.

Unkike others, I thought the xp10's (on 4 corners) were decent for the price. Need to bed them in well though.

But it wasnt until upgrading to a BBK that I had complete confidence in my brakes.
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Old 08-02-2019, 06:04 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by biggie View Post
The pedal was no softer/harder than usual. Just no bite. Also I did not observed any smearing but I'll take the pads off anyway to make sure they are ok (before the next trackday).

Worth noting: I painted the calipers using K2 spray paint and it was completely carbonized after just 2 sessions (front only, in the back the paint is intact).

The problem is that I'm using the car as a daily also, so dedicated track pads are not a (convenient) option for me. I'm only going at ~10 trackdays per year but I'm really pushing the limits (I had quite a few "grass encounters" )

So yellowstuff with their 950C temperature rating seemed like a good compromise

Slotted StopTech rotors are just a bit more expensive than Centric (like 50$ for all 4) but I still need to find pads that can be used on the road as well.

Hawk DTC60 I think are track only.
I daily Project Mu Club Racer Pads. They dust everywhere, squeak, and eat rotors, but are otherwise bearable for daily use and function just fine. I wash the car at least once a month. Never had fade-out at the track yet. I've used them to the point where they were smoldering, and still ran fine.
  • Pads are so easy to change yourself. I think the safety benefit of good pads outweighs the inconveniences of dailying a race-pad or swap-out of street pads
After a few track days, the paint/lettering on the brake pads are seared off. Paint on the calipers will do the same. Even high temperature paints will discolor over time.

---

To add to the tally of votes
  1. No need for fancy rotors. Blank rotors work just fine. Slotted rotors will chew through pads. Drilled rotors have gone out of favor due to being prone to cracking through
  2. If you're tracking, get a proper track pad. Avoid the compromise of hybrid pads.
  3. You can certainly daily track pads. Just requires a bit more attention and maintenance
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Old 08-02-2019, 06:27 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by NoHaveMSG View Post
Mike and I have talked about my situation a while ago. Are the C1's close to the same coefficient of friction as the XP10's? I have not had a chance to get my car out much this year so if they are not I will replace them as a F/R set this year. If they are close I will swap the fronts out now cause I just flat do not like the way they feel on the front end.
Linear torque curve - friction is lower than XP10, but the pad is significantly stiffer than almost all pads on the market. That correlates to good response, control, and bite, which often feels like the pad has more friction than it really does. Your foot controls how much brake you want and you'll get it from cold to hot. Because of the lower friction characteristic, you'll end up generating just the right amount of energy and reduce the overall heat transfer into the caliper, which can distort the pedal precision and also affect the brake fluid. This is a common trait for upper echelon motorsport pads as they want the pedal to be confident and directly correlated to actual performance.



Quote:
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Another vote no on the HC+800. Had those pads and did not like them for track use.

Unkike others, I thought the xp10's (on 4 corners) were decent for the price. Need to bed them in well though.

But it wasnt until upgrading to a BBK that I had complete confidence in my brakes.
Most pads are squishy so the confidence is often due to the pad compressing. That added pressure along with extra heat generated from the friction causes the heat to transfer through all the surrounding components. Heat makes the caliper flex more and eventually affects the brake fluid. The result is a pedal that feels a little spongy or less confident as you press on throughout the session.
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Old 08-02-2019, 06:36 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by CSG David View Post
Linear torque curve - friction is lower than XP10, but the pad is significantly stiffer than almost all pads on the market. That correlates to good response, control, and bite, which often feels like the pad has more friction than it really does. Your foot controls how much brake you want and you'll get it from cold to hot. Because of the lower friction characteristic, you'll end up generating just the right amount of energy and reduce the overall heat transfer into the caliper, which can distort the pedal precision and also affect the brake fluid. This is a common trait for upper echelon motorsport pads as they want the pedal to be confident and directly correlated to actual performance.


This is one of my biggest issues with the XP10. The pedal feel is vague under hard braking even though they do not feel like the performance has begun to fade. It makes it hard to modulate the brakes when the tires are hot and starting to get greasy.
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Old 08-02-2019, 08:51 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by NoHaveMSG View Post
Mike and I have talked about my situation a while ago. Are the C1's close to the same coefficient of friction as the XP10's? I have not had a chance to get my car out much this year so if they are not I will replace them as a F/R set this year. If they are close I will swap the fronts out now cause I just flat do not like the way they feel on the front end.
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Originally Posted by DarkSunrise View Post
Another vote no on the HC+800. Had those pads and did not like them for track use.

Unkike others, I thought the xp10's (on 4 corners) were decent for the price. Need to bed them in well though.

But it wasnt until upgrading to a BBK that I had complete confidence in my brakes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoHaveMSG View Post
This is one of my biggest issues with the XP10. The pedal feel is vague under hard braking even though they do not feel like the performance has begun to fade. It makes it hard to modulate the brakes when the tires are hot and starting to get greasy.
There are pad setups that are great starters to jump into especially if someone is trying to track on OEM brake pads or equivalent. Many people get concerned about the price point often citing how it's impossible how such a small part could be such a major performance difference or how race pads could have so many different variations.

As the pace increases, other setups are required. Because we've tested so many configurations, so many products, and range of products, it's easy for us to recommend what will work and provide the next stepping stones for the client.
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Old 08-03-2019, 02:09 AM   #26
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Hi,

My '13 GT86 is almost fully stock, with only minor changes:
- Oz Alleggerita HLT 18" rims
- Michelin SuperSport 225/40 tires (36/34psi front/back - hot)
- EBC yellowstuff pads all-around (stock rotors, calipers and brake-lines)
- Castrol SRF Racing DOT4 brake fluid

The pads and fluid have been used for 4-5 sessions in total (20 min each) since changed/new.

At my last trackday (with 2h cooldown after the first session) I lost brakes completely after 8-10 minutes of really pushing the car to the limits, on a hot 31C outside temperature (the car was reading 41C!). There are 2 consecutive high speed braking corners, in the first one from I braked from 180km/h to about 90 and in the second one (10-15 seconds later) from 170 to about 60 - this is where I lost the brakes. I pressed the pedal multiple times with almost no effect. I switched to 3rd gear to slow down and reached the grass at ~100km. I stopped in about 70 meters after reaching the grass (fortunately the track fence was at about 100m, so apparent damage).

The strange thing is that after returning to the track the brakes worked just fine. Obviously I did not pushed them as hard again.

I never observed any issues in my previous trackdays (first 2 with stock pads and fluid) since I got the car (6 months ago), but this was the hottest day so far.

I'm thinking that maybe the brakes were overheating, but Yellowstuff pads have very high temperature rating and the same goes for the Castrol SRF.

What do you guys think?


I'm going to echo what everyone else has said and say this is a clear case of brake pad fade. The fact you encountered brake pad fade with those tires should be telling you how terribly unsuitable the EBC Yellows are for track use. It would have faded even quicker on stickier tires, most likely.

Personally I've found that there is no substitute for a dedicated track pad, even on tight tracks with lower speeds entering hard braking zones. I'm currently running the CSG Spec pads and loving them for their linearity, but if you don't want to spend quite that much yet I'd recommend trying Carbotech XP10s or Ferodo DS1.11s. I've used both and had good experiences with both.
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Old 08-03-2019, 11:18 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by CSG David View Post
Like good tires with different categories of greatness, brake pads are the same. I'm certain we can get you running with the proper gear granted you're willing to take the advice.
Track pads it is then!

Considering that I'm not (yet) willing to spend 400$ on pads for front only and recommendations on this topic (THANKS GUYS! ) my top 3 would be (in no particular order):
CARBOTECH XP10
Project Mu Club Racer
HAWK DTC-60

I think you got an idea of my current needs so I would appreciate your recommendation! Thanks!

P.S. still not willing to change pads for track/street
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Old 08-03-2019, 11:26 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by biggie View Post
Track pads it is then!

Considering that I'm not (yet) willing to spend 400$ on pads for front only and recommendations on this topic (THANKS GUYS! ) my top 3 would be (in no particular order):
CARBOTECH XP10
Project Mu Club Racer
HAWK DTC-60

I think you got an idea of my current needs so I would appreciate your recommendation! Thanks!

P.S. still not willing to change pads for track/street
That's the right call. Track pads on the street is safer than street pads on the track.

Expense is never easy to calculate. Over time, those $400 pads are very possibly cheaper... Just like a BBK can pay for itself.
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