follow ft86club on our blog, twitter or facebook.
FT86CLUB
Ft86Club
Xero Limit
Register Garage Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   Scion FR-S Forum | Subaru BRZ Forum | Toyota 86 GT 86 Forum | AS1 Forum - FT86CLUB > Technical Topics > Suspension | Chassis | Brakes -- Sponsored by 949 Racing

Suspension | Chassis | Brakes -- Sponsored by 949 Racing Relating to suspension, chassis, and brakes. Sponsored by 949 Racing.


User Tag List

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 09-18-2019, 11:47 PM   #3669
R2
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Drives: FR-S
Location: Sask., Canada
Posts: 238
Thanks: 77
Thanked 88 Times in 54 Posts
Mentioned: 19 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Racecomp Engineering View Post
Front:
Front control arm (front) bushing.
Whiteline ALK
steering rack bushings


Rear:
trailing arm front
crossmember inserts
diff bushings

rear upper control arm bushings (either the camber adjustable or the fixed)

I bolded the ones I recommend most and are the better bang for the buck. The others are good too. Might as well do as many as you can stand at the same time since they're almost all kind of a pain to install.

- Andy
It’s been a few years; do you still feel this list is accurate?
R2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-16-2019, 10:43 AM   #3670
tane
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Drives: 2014 BRZ
Location: Seattle
Posts: 1
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
I am looking to do a suspension upgrade this winter and this is a really great thread. I have a track oriented ’14 BRZ that sees light daily driving. I have upgraded brakes and exhaust/tuning. I generally like the way the car handles on the track, but am looking to increase overall grip, and reduce some of the understeer on corner exit of big sweepers (I am destroying RF tires on a mostly left turn track). I have Michelin PS4S (225/45 R17) and want to stay with those rather than go to a more focused track tire (Cup 2 or other).

I am thinking of something like Ohlin R&T with camber plates. To target something like -2 degrees camber upfront. At stock height I have -1.25 negative camber in rears right now (and zero camber upfront). I will want to test out stock height vs say a 20mm drop to see the difference.

Here is my confusion. I have been told that Ohlin suggests spring rates of 50N/m (443 lbs/in) front and back. And they say those springs were sized assuming that you keep the OEM anti-sway bars in place (18mm and 14mm).

This was surprising to me. This thread seems to suggest that using a combination of softer springs and stiff bars (like the OEM set up) is an “older” approach to suspension and that it is better to try to get the spring rates right directly and then use bars only to tune balance preference.

At 443 lbs/in, this seemed to imply that without the bars, Ohlin was targeting something that had similar stiffness upfront to the OEM, but 35% more stiffness in the rear (using the really great “wheel rate” data on a related suspension model thread https://www.ft86club.com/forums/show...t=26661&page=8). For a road and track suspension, this seemed like a good place to start.

But if you keep the OEM 18mm/14mm bars attached and just add the Ohlins, that is increasing a lot of stiffness all around (plus adding more in the back).

Which outcome was Ohlin targeting when they recommended 50N/m springs in their coilovers?

Or am I misunderstanding something here?
tane is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-16-2019, 11:07 AM   #3671
Racecomp Engineering
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Drives: 2016 BRZ, 2012 Paris Di2 & 2018 STI
Location: Severn, MD
Posts: 4,315
Thanks: 2,235
Thanked 5,181 Times in 2,211 Posts
Mentioned: 258 Post(s)
Tagged: 9 Thread(s)
Send a message via AIM to Racecomp Engineering
Quote:
Originally Posted by R2 View Post
It’s been a few years; do you still feel this list is accurate?
Yes....but...I wish there was an easier or different solution to the ALK. It's a fine piece but not what I really want in that spot.

- Andrew
__________________
Suspension and brake specialists
www.racecompengineering.com

+1 (410) 846-5407
instagram:@racecompengineering @theapexfiles
Racecomp Engineering is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-16-2019, 01:00 PM   #3672
Racecomp Engineering
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Drives: 2016 BRZ, 2012 Paris Di2 & 2018 STI
Location: Severn, MD
Posts: 4,315
Thanks: 2,235
Thanked 5,181 Times in 2,211 Posts
Mentioned: 258 Post(s)
Tagged: 9 Thread(s)
Send a message via AIM to Racecomp Engineering
Quote:
Originally Posted by tane View Post
I am looking to do a suspension upgrade this winter and this is a really great thread. I have a track oriented ’14 BRZ that sees light daily driving. I have upgraded brakes and exhaust/tuning. I generally like the way the car handles on the track, but am looking to increase overall grip, and reduce some of the understeer on corner exit of big sweepers (I am destroying RF tires on a mostly left turn track). I have Michelin PS4S (225/45 R17) and want to stay with those rather than go to a more focused track tire (Cup 2 or other).

I am thinking of something like Ohlin R&T with camber plates. To target something like -2 degrees camber upfront. At stock height I have -1.25 negative camber in rears right now (and zero camber upfront). I will want to test out stock height vs say a 20mm drop to see the difference.

Here is my confusion. I have been told that Ohlin suggests spring rates of 50N/m (443 lbs/in) front and back. And they say those springs were sized assuming that you keep the OEM anti-sway bars in place (18mm and 14mm).

This was surprising to me. This thread seems to suggest that using a combination of softer springs and stiff bars (like the OEM set up) is an “older” approach to suspension and that it is better to try to get the spring rates right directly and then use bars only to tune balance preference.

At 443 lbs/in, this seemed to imply that without the bars, Ohlin was targeting something that had similar stiffness upfront to the OEM, but 35% more stiffness in the rear (using the really great “wheel rate” data on a related suspension model thread https://www.ft86club.com/forums/show...t=26661&page=8). For a road and track suspension, this seemed like a good place to start.

But if you keep the OEM 18mm/14mm bars attached and just add the Ohlins, that is increasing a lot of stiffness all around (plus adding more in the back).

Which outcome was Ohlin targeting when they recommended 50N/m springs in their coilovers?

Or am I misunderstanding something here?
Hmm...I think we're missing something here. First up, you probably meant 50 N/mm (not N/m) and that does not convert to 443 lbs/in...it's around 285 lbs/in.

To make it more simple, are you comparing these 3 hypothetical set ups with your tires?

1. Stock
2. Ohlins with 50 N/mm springs
3. #2 but with stiffer swaybars

- Andrew
__________________
Suspension and brake specialists
www.racecompengineering.com

+1 (410) 846-5407
instagram:@racecompengineering @theapexfiles
Racecomp Engineering is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-18-2019, 06:09 AM   #3673
cueball89
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Drives: 16 BRZ 03 Outback
Location: NY
Posts: 98
Thanks: 24
Thanked 41 Times in 27 Posts
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Racecomp Engineering View Post
Yes....but...I wish there was an easier or different solution to the ALK. It's a fine piece but not what I really want in that spot.

- Andrew



Can you elaborate on that? I don't have an issue pressing the old bushings out. I am a little hesitant putting poly bushings in areas where the old bushing moves in more than one axis.
cueball89 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-18-2019, 06:57 AM   #3674
churchx
Senior Member
 
churchx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Drives: 2014 orange GT86
Location: Latvia, Riga
Posts: 3,449
Thanks: 470
Thanked 1,568 Times in 1,084 Posts
Mentioned: 40 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Whiteline ALK may fail for some, with metallic insert separating from poly bushing. Well, at least it did fail this way for me. Currently replaced it with non-eccentric power suspensions front LCA front poly bushing. There is extra caster from pedders top mount, so not seeing extra caster from front bushing of front LCA that needed. Also there might be "too much" caster, as everything, that makes steering heavier, eg. increasing scrub radius, lot more caster, imho may put more load on our electric power steering, which was prone to overheating on older twins (IIRC fixed .. not sure though if on MY2015 or MY2017), recalling reading post where for someone reducing caster helped/fixed with EPS overheating/switching off problem.
churchx is online now   Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to churchx For This Useful Post:
cueball89 (10-18-2019), korhun (10-18-2019), Takumi788 (10-18-2019)
Old 10-18-2019, 01:17 PM   #3675
Racecomp Engineering
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Drives: 2016 BRZ, 2012 Paris Di2 & 2018 STI
Location: Severn, MD
Posts: 4,315
Thanks: 2,235
Thanked 5,181 Times in 2,211 Posts
Mentioned: 258 Post(s)
Tagged: 9 Thread(s)
Send a message via AIM to Racecomp Engineering
Quote:
Originally Posted by cueball89 View Post
Can you elaborate on that? I don't have an issue pressing the old bushings out. I am a little hesitant putting poly bushings in areas where the old bushing moves in more than one axis.
That's exactly it. It's fine...but...I would love a sealed offset pillowball.

- Andrew
__________________
Suspension and brake specialists
www.racecompengineering.com

+1 (410) 846-5407
instagram:@racecompengineering @theapexfiles

Last edited by Racecomp Engineering; 10-19-2019 at 11:26 PM.
Racecomp Engineering is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Racecomp Engineering For This Useful Post:
churchx (10-18-2019), cueball89 (10-18-2019)
Old 10-30-2019, 04:12 PM   #3676
RotARy15
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2019
Drives: 1993 Mazda RX-7 R1, 2017 BRZ PP
Location: USA
Posts: 16
Thanks: 0
Thanked 3 Times in 2 Posts
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
I've somehow finished reading this entire thread and I have a few questions remaining.

Slight crosspost from another thread>
Quote:
Originally Posted by RotARy15 View Post
My plan at the moment is to keep it mostly stock. I'm in an interesting situation with my FD. I was slowly building it to be track worthy (must control thermal runaway...) but at this point, I need proper facilities to complete some of the work. So for now I am going to keep things simple as the BRZ is not intended to be a track toy, yet. It replaced my 03 NB as a daily driver. And will be serving as a track-able daily until I get the FD finished or give up and sell it at which point I will start making spectacularly stupid decisions with the BRZ.

I haven't decided on width for track wheels yet and my biggest hangup is that it depends on suspension mods. I'd like at least 245's but best I can tell, a 9 inch is hard to fit on an OE setup and that gets more difficult if you gain camber at the hub. 17x8.5's are rare and 17x8 isn't really a large increase over the stock 7.5's so I might as well hunt down another set of stock wheels and slap sticky 215's on those in that case. It is hard to justify $1000 in wheels for only another .5 inch when I could hunt down stock wheels for around $500.

The main goal suspension wise is track/street alignment. I don't really want to hop off the PP setup yet. Camber bolts alone aren't enough. Raceseng plates are the goal but buying plates for the OE coilover and then deciding I want V3's or Tarmac2's is an unnecessary re-fitting cost attributed simply to indecision and poor planning...
How much are 245's worth compared to 215's? Enough to deal with the headache of squeezing a 9 inch wheel in an OE setup?

With regard to camber. I'd like to save the money on plates and go with bolts but that alone won't get me enough camber. Does slotting the OE strut and adding camber bolts to the top hole sound as crazy as I'm afraid it does? If I mirrored the slots from something like the T2's what ballpark would that get me to? Looking for -2 to -2.5.

If the rear turns out to be heavily mismatched or too low then I will spring for SPL's and just get that problem solved without too much thought.

May eventually do subframe and transmission/diff bushings but I feel like I will "forget" to do these if I don't end up with a personal 2 post lift.
RotARy15 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-30-2019, 04:55 PM   #3677
timurrrr
Senior Member
 
timurrrr's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2019
Drives: 2017 Subaru BRZ with PP
Location: Between Sonoma and Laguna Seca
Posts: 207
Thanks: 165
Thanked 59 Times in 48 Posts
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by RotARy15 View Post
With regard to camber. I'd like to save the money on plates and go with bolts but that alone won't get me enough camber. Does slotting the OE strut and adding camber bolts to the top hole sound as crazy as I'm afraid it does? If I mirrored the slots from something like the T2's what ballpark would that get me to? Looking for -2 to -2.5.
You can get -1.75º with just SPC Performance camber bolts for ($20 on Amazon). Some folks swap the other bolts too and get even more, so perhaps your goal is achievable with just bolts; although I personally avoided using two pairs of bolts.

I've also seen Pedders offset strut mounts but don't know anyone to confirm how well they work. They are pretty cheap though, so worth a try?
timurrrr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-31-2019, 12:25 AM   #3678
churchx
Senior Member
 
churchx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Drives: 2014 orange GT86
Location: Latvia, Riga
Posts: 3,449
Thanks: 470
Thanked 1,568 Times in 1,084 Posts
Mentioned: 40 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
timurrrr: they work fine. Not that cheap though (price is for one, you need two).
churchx is online now   Reply With Quote
 
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Air Suspension Discussion Thread - Let's Get Nerdy Andrew@ORT Suspension | Chassis | Brakes -- Sponsored by 949 Racing 174 02-13-2016 04:17 PM
RallySport Directs Everything Suspension thread!! RallySport Direct Brakes, Suspension, Chassis 21 07-02-2014 05:31 PM
The OFFICIAL Ohlins Coilover Suspension thread - High End Competition Suspension ModBargains.com Suspension | Chassis | Brakes -- Sponsored by 949 Racing 63 05-22-2013 08:15 AM
2012 Team USA vs the 1992 Dream Team ERZperformance Off-Topic Lounge 1 09-14-2012 06:19 PM
Team build thread; PROJECT.STH trueno86power Other Vehicles & General Automotive Discussions 0 03-02-2010 11:13 AM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 12:43 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Garage vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.