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Old 09-04-2015, 02:41 PM   #29
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Recently, one of the groups I'm a part of made an announcement clarifying the use of the Hybrid products with 3-point belts. Apparently only the Simpson Hybrid is intended to be used with three point belts because it has the longer solid back piece. The Pro and Sport both lack the longer back piece and should not be used with 3-point belts.

Although I don't know the basis for the information, I do trust the source..
So I spoke with someone in the technical dept at Simpson, who advised me "neither" the Hybrid or Hybrid Sport are "intended" or designed for use with 3 point belts, however both are compatible, and recommended the Sport model if going between 6 pt, 4 pt and 3 pt harness cars, as the Hybrid has the piece going down the back that many find uncomfortable.

Also, interestingly enough, Shelby & Ford Performance is running their "Track Tour" program at Laguna Seca, Sebring, Road America and LRP to demo their GT350 and GT350R, and all participants are being provided a Hybrid Sport to use with the factory belts.
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Old 09-04-2015, 03:20 PM   #30
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Thanks everyone for the valuable information in this thread. I'm at the end of my second year of HPDE with my BRZ (around 35 days) and I'm trying to figure out where I go from here as far as safety. Unfortunately, I don't have a place to park a trailer. So whatever I do has to be safe on the street. That seriously limits my options. After having seen spec miatas and other similarly sized cars roll in youtube videos, I'm not too thrilled about heading out there as I get faster.
I am currently using the Scroth Rally 3 in my BRZ with a Defender head and neck brace. The Scroth allows your body to rotate much like a factory 3 point does. You can check their website out for details. The Defender is no no longer sold as HANS sued them out of business. I like it because it's comfortable and I can easily connect and disconnect it with my helmet on. You can keep your factory belts in the car to use on the street.

An added benefit is how they hold you in the seat. I put them on with the seat all the way back, then slide the seat forward to make them super tight. I'm no longer using my knees to keep from moving around.

The fact that you realize you are getting faster and are thinking about the risk is a good sign. Driving well within your limits on areas of the track that pose more risk is an easy answer. It's ok to do that. After all, like someone said, we aren't racing. We are there to have fun. You have also picked a good car. A twin is something you can really work to get everything out of and not find yourself doing 150 mph.

A couple of other notes.

A stock street cars safety systems were not designed or intended to adequately protect you at 140mph. Not even at 100mph.

In 2009 the Feds increased the rollover protection standards on passenger cars. Manufacturers were given 3 years to comply with those standards. 2012 and later cars meet those new standards. While even the new standards aren't going to protect you in a 90mph end over end crash, it's still something to take into consideration when making your choices.
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Old 09-04-2015, 04:05 PM   #31
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Yes, I've had a HANS in the past and now use the Necksgen. Along with Schroth 6 point harness and a 4 point roll bar from Cantrell Motorsports and Recaro Sporster seats. I've been using this setup for 10 years on various cars to maintain a good balance between street/track safety.

Good to hear. The reason I asked is it's important for people new to the hobby that may have read your other comment to understand that a Head & Neck restraint is possible, and a good idea, even in a "street car" setup.
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Old 09-04-2015, 04:13 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by fatalelement View Post
Schroth 4-points and I believe Takata's equivalents are DOT approved for the street, as long as they have ASM.

Not attempting to be combative, but I'd also be interested in some data on harness bar collisions and if it matters where and what they are mounted to.


I think one of the other requirements to meet DOT is they have the button to release the belts - like normal street car belts.


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Old 09-04-2015, 05:57 PM   #33
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So I spoke with someone in the technical dept at Simpson, who advised me "neither" the Hybrid or Hybrid Sport are "intended" or designed for use with 3 point belts, however both are compatible, and recommended the Sport model if going between 6 pt, 4 pt and 3 pt harness cars, as the Hybrid has the piece going down the back that many find uncomfortable.

Also, interestingly enough, Shelby & Ford Performance is running their "Track Tour" program at Laguna Seca, Sebring, Road America and LRP to demo their GT350 and GT350R, and all participants are being provided a Hybrid Sport to use with the factory belts.
There were a TON of Simpson boxes when I went....
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Old 09-04-2015, 06:53 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by Alan View Post

Thanks everyone for the valuable information in this thread. I'm at the end of my second year of HPDE with my BRZ (around 35 days) and I'm trying to figure out where I go from here as far as safety. Unfortunately, I don't have a place to park a trailer. So whatever I do has to be safe on the street. That seriously limits my options. After having seen spec miatas and other similarly sized cars roll in youtube videos, I'm not too thrilled about heading out there as I get faster.
Alan, guys like you are exactly why Pomroy put that document together and why we're talking about these things more at Chin Motorsports events.

I'm a Miata guy and will pickup a BRZ very soon. I've had a cage and 4 point bars in my Miatas. For the BRZ, based on what I've seen in my own research about the car unibody design (roof) and crash test videos... I'm going with a 4 point harness - no 4pt roll bar. A harness bar is a possibility. I have the same DefNder H&N restraint as Pomroy, which I will use. The Simpson option is very interesting and I may get one. I'm at a track at least once per month, do checkout rides, and am actually quite risk averse. I'm satisfied that this setup will be appropriate for what I'm doing, and the way I drive.
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Old 09-05-2015, 01:27 PM   #35
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Another safety item that rarely gets mentioned.

Tires.

Put on tires with very little grip and the car can only go around a corner with very little speed. Translation: if an incident occurs the car/driver experiences less...."physics".
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Old 09-05-2015, 02:36 PM   #36
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Another safety item that rarely gets mentioned.

Tires.

Put on tires with very little grip and the car can only go around a corner with very little speed. Translation: if an incident occurs the car/driver experiences less...."physics".
That's for sure. I'm still on the stock tires (about to replace them though) and the last HPDE a few weeks ago was quite fun -- you can be at/near the limit at relatively slow speed, especially on the tighter track configurations.
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Old 09-05-2015, 04:49 PM   #37
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Im afraid I can't help on that as I've never seen a rollover at any event I've ever been too. I never even heard about a rollover at an event with the group I run with in my 12 years with them.
First event I ever went to in 2007 saw a Boxster roll over at Roebling at turn 9, seen others. I'm actually amazed by the number of really bad incidents I've seen there, lucky everyone's made it out ok-ish.
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Old 09-05-2015, 09:57 PM   #38
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Another safety item that rarely gets mentioned.

Tires.

Put on tires with very little grip and the car can only go around a corner with very little speed. Translation: if an incident occurs the car/driver experiences less...."physics".
While I'm not sure I agree that tires would be considered as a safety item, I agree that they contribute to corner speed. The raw data shows accidents are more likely to happen in a corner so lower corner speeds result in less damage.

I think your thread may have bled over into this one a bit. That's ok as it seems safety is our ultimate goal. here's something for discussion (maybe more on your thread). What would happen if 200 tread wear tires were the max allowed? Anyone that's been doing this for very long knows what happens to lap times and corner speeds on those tires compared to slicks. I'm not saying I'm a fan of excessive regulation. But if it came down to it, it's something I could live with.
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Old 09-06-2015, 04:27 AM   #39
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While I'm not sure I agree that tires would be considered as a safety item, I agree that they contribute to corner speed. The raw data shows accidents are more likely to happen in a corner so lower corner speeds result in less damage.

I think your thread may have bled over into this one a bit. That's ok as it seems safety is our ultimate goal. here's something for discussion (maybe more on your thread). What would happen if 200 tread wear tires were the max allowed? Anyone that's been doing this for very long knows what happens to lap times and corner speeds on those tires compared to slicks. I'm not saying I'm a fan of excessive regulation. But if it came down to it, it's something I could live with.
Don't forget that tires not only contribute to speed but safety and control as well, I tore my OEM tires up on my second track day. A hotshot who may not know his car or equipment too well could destroy a set of tires and in the last session totally do something that worked on session 4 but ain't gonna fly in session 5.

I'll also never forget frying my brakes at a track day and driving home with a spongy pedal in some really heavy traffic.

Motul RBF 600 was ordered on Amazon prime before my head hit the pillow that day.

But that falls under the 'car maintenance' category of the safety checklist. If there was more time in the HPDE day it would be great to go over that safety list in detail but they've got enough on their hands making sure people don't go sailing off track because they forgot what turn they were on.
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Old 09-06-2015, 07:44 AM   #40
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I am currently using the Scroth Rally 3 in my BRZ with a Defender head and neck brace. The Scroth allows your body to rotate much like a factory 3 point does. You can check their website out for details. The Defender is no no longer sold as HANS sued them out of business. I like it because it's comfortable and I can easily connect and disconnect it with my helmet on. You can keep your factory belts in the car to use on the street.

An added benefit is how they hold you in the seat. I put them on with the seat all the way back, then slide the seat forward to make them super tight. I'm no longer using my knees to keep from moving around.

The fact that you realize you are getting faster and are thinking about the risk is a good sign. Driving well within your limits on areas of the track that pose more risk is an easy answer. It's ok to do that. After all, like someone said, we aren't racing. We are there to have fun. You have also picked a good car. A twin is something you can really work to get everything out of and not find yourself doing 150 mph.

A couple of other notes.

A stock street cars safety systems were not designed or intended to adequately protect you at 140mph. Not even at 100mph.

In 2009 the Feds increased the rollover protection standards on passenger cars. Manufacturers were given 3 years to comply with those standards. 2012 and later cars meet those new standards. While even the new standards aren't going to protect you in a 90mph end over end crash, it's still something to take into consideration when making your choices.
Unfortunately, a lot of groups and instructors have indicated they don't like seeing the Scroth Rally harnesses. I've even heard of some instructors that won't get in a car with them.

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Alan, guys like you are exactly why Pomroy put that document together and why we're talking about these things more at Chin Motorsports events.

I'm a Miata guy and will pickup a BRZ very soon. I've had a cage and 4 point bars in my Miatas. For the BRZ, based on what I've seen in my own research about the car unibody design (roof) and crash test videos... I'm going with a 4 point harness - no 4pt roll bar. A harness bar is a possibility. I have the same DefNder H&N restraint as Pomroy, which I will use. The Simpson option is very interesting and I may get one. I'm at a track at least once per month, do checkout rides, and am actually quite risk averse. I'm satisfied that this setup will be appropriate for what I'm doing, and the way I drive.
For both @JMimacc351 and @gatorac, are you using 4 points because a five or six point would require a fixed seat and thus disable side airbags? I am prepared to do a half cage and seats in the car. I am not so comfortable with losing airbags as I plan to continue to drive to and from the track. Defeating standard safety equipment as a part of a system does not sit well with me. The issue of using three-point belts with a fixed-back seat also concerns me.

If I can't find a workable solution, I will likely sell the car and get an E36 without side airbags. I figure that allows me to drive to and from the track AND do a half cage, seats, six points and HANS. But I will really miss my BRZ if that happens.

Note, the safety discussion has been becoming more prevalent at some group's track days. NASA Northeast devotes an entire classroom session each weekend to these issues.
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Old 09-06-2015, 10:35 PM   #41
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For both @JMimacc351 and @gatorac, are you using 4 points because a five or six point would require a fixed seat and thus disable side airbags? I am prepared to do a half cage and seats in the car. I am not so comfortable with losing airbags as I plan to continue to drive to and from the track. Defeating standard safety equipment as a part of a system does not sit well with me. The issue of using three-point belts with a fixed-back seat also concerns me.

If I can't find a workable solution, I will likely sell the car and get an E36 without side airbags. I figure that allows me to drive to and from the track AND do a half cage, seats, six points and HANS. But I will really miss my BRZ if that happens.

Note, the safety discussion has been becoming more prevalent at some group's track days. NASA Northeast devotes an entire classroom session each weekend to these issues.
Alan, for me... the main issue is whether it's contested passing (racing) or HPDE events with agreed point-by passing.

Racing = full cage, fire suit, fire suppression, etc... Everything. That's what we have in our ChumpCar Miata.

However, I'm doing HPDE events with Chin Motorsports... these are some of the things that go through my mind and influence my plan. The important thing is to keep your eyes and ears open for better ideas and feedback.
  • I would buy or mod, as necessary, in order to have a H&N device. That is my top priority.
  • I like the stock BRZ seat, all things considered. In the stock setup I've experienced the sore knee-sides from bracing. Pomroy (GatorAC) says the Schroth 4 point holds him in the seat without needing to brace in the same manner. That Schroth 4 point also allows me to use my "DefNder" H&N device - which I already own. If that works for me then it means I can keep the stock seat (airbags), use my H&N restraint, stay planted in the car, and save $$$ for Ballast Point Sculpin. Sounds like a tasty place to start, for me.
  • In MY opinion, the BRZ doesn't need a "roll bar", given the way I'll use the car. Consider my perspective though... I'm coming out of a Panoz GTRA, then on to a number of Miatas. Based on my own research, I'm satisfied with the strength of the roof - for my needs. I don't think I need a full cage, half cage, or 4pt bar, as I am not doing contested passing and worrying about a hammerhead trying to bonsai pass me (heavy side impact). The track I most often run at, Sebring, means a side impact is likely into tires. I'll take the side impact protection and side curtain airbags designed into the BRZ for that. Could a side impact with another car happen at an HPDE event? Yes. Is it likely? EXTREMELY unlikely. That's MY choice.
  • I want to be able to drive the car to the track in a very streetable form, with wheels / tires in the back.
  • I don't want to hack up a brand new car, and, I don't think I NEED to hack up a brand new car. Even with that said, my choice is based on what I think is appropriate for what I'm doing. I just happen to think I'm able to meet my need of a H&N restraint without a bar, and I'm not trying to makeup for the shortcomings of a Miata in a rollover.
  • I drive within my limits. My close calls are usually due to a mistake, not over-driving. Know yourself and what you need to do to your car to, in good faith, be safe.
  • Do not let the illusion of safety and the fact that you haven't had an issue let you become complacent about what you know you need to do.

Is putting a half cage, full cage, or 4pt bar in a BRZ for HPDE events a bad idea? If it works with how you use the car otherwise... my opinion is: Nope. Anything less than a full cage, fire suit, fire suppression, etc in a car on a race track can be said to be less safe than a "street car" on a race track.

We've all tried to explain to those we know / work with what we do. They may think what we do is a little "risky". We've all seen their eyes glaze over when we try to explain it. The important thing is that I know that I'm not being "reckless".

Each of us has to, in good faith, think about what we are doing with the car on a race track. Then we have to make our own choices. People will make different choices. The Bullshyte stops at Pit Out.

As I said, be open to other ideas and feedback. I am.
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Old 09-17-2015, 09:27 PM   #42
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Unfortunately, a lot of groups and instructors have indicated they don't like seeing the Scroth Rally harnesses. I've even heard of some instructors that won't get in a car with them.



For both @JMimacc351 and @gatorac, are you using 4 points because a five or six point would require a fixed seat and thus disable side airbags?
I use the Scroth 4 points because I am using the factory seat. You can't really mount a sub strap properly with a factory seat. Basilar skull fracture is my biggest concern. That's what kills drivers. Even with a relatively mild front end impact. I want something that I can use a head and neck restraint with. I'm a *****. I'm skeered without one.


Interesting argument about switching to an earlier model car because it doesn't have the side airbags for you to lose if you change the seat. There are many other safety upgrades in later model cars. Like the improved rollover protection. It's good that you are seeking information. That will give you a firm foundation to do what you fell is best for your situation. A car that shares the street and track will always have compromises. Suspension, brakes, power, cooling and safety. Theres no perfect solution. You should approach your on track driving with that insight.
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